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GnomeTitan Oversized Garden Ornament Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Oversized Garden Ornament
#76: Apr 10th 2021 at 11:11:29 AM

I can't really see a case where chainmail bikinis wouldn't be fanservice. Yes, there can be various in-universe explanations for why a chainmail bikini would be perfectly normal attire for the adventuring woman, but why do you think the authors invented those explanations? Hardly to create a starkly realistic setting...

But if there's any doubt, it can be written into the trope description that the trope is or isn't a fanservice trope. One case that I've seen is Sweater Girl - IIRC there was actually a TRS decision that the trope was a (very mild) fanservice trope and not just a fashion or appearance trope.

EDITED: As has been said before, if something seems to be an example of a fanservice trope, but isn't played for fanservice, it's not an example.

Edited by GnomeTitan on Apr 10th 2021 at 8:24:07 PM

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#77: Apr 10th 2021 at 11:25:47 AM

I agree, armor showing a lot skin is such a deviation from how it is used in real life that you can assume authorial intent just by Chainmail Bikini's existence.

I feel that way about skimpy costumes with in-universe 'explanations' in general — they aren't made in a vacuum. Starfire is probably one of the poster girls for that: her costumes are universally revealing even for comics, and they're justified by (a) she's fun and freewheeling as a person (b) she is powered by the sun and thus needs to show skinnote  (c) her much more minor brother dressed like that too. But a justification for why she dresses that way doesn't mean she isn't sexualized to Krypton and back and the explanations are in service of the costume, not the other way around.

[down]Yeah, exactly (was editing while you posted this and forgot to actually save, didn't mean to repeat what you said).

Edited by Synchronicity on Apr 10th 2021 at 1:39:44 PM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#78: Apr 10th 2021 at 11:29:17 AM

I agree. These artists aren't creating the costumes based around the justification. They're creating the costumes and then justifying them. Otherwise, why even make a costume that needs the justifying? Taking Starfire as an example, if you start with the idea that she's powered by the sun, there's other ways to go about it, such as giving her a costume that traps and absorbs heat.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
AGuy Since: Jun, 2009
#79: Apr 10th 2021 at 11:49:29 AM

That seems reasonable. Let me see if I can understand how we're feeling so far.

  • People wearing swimsuits during a special Beach Episode isn't assumed to be fanservice without things like camera focus, suggestive dialogue, etc., as there is a practical reason for such a thing.
  • Wearing impractical outfits that are revealing is assumed to be fanservice, even if justified In-Universe.

Does that sound right?

Also, a note: Chainmail Bikini also covers men in impractical armor that shows off their body, as well. Those examples aren't quite as clear cut, because they could be fanservice, or they could be part of the power fantasy for the target demographic.

Edited by AGuy on Apr 10th 2021 at 2:52:51 PM

I'm just.. a guy....
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#80: Apr 10th 2021 at 12:08:42 PM

Yeah. Take the image on Beach Episode, for example — there is zero sexualization going on there.

It is difficult to make a general statement about men in impractical armor, although the page image on Chainmail Bikini already shows gendering. If they wanted to portray Conan and Sonja equally, he'd be in a thong, and would be in a Boobs-and-Butt Pose like she is.

Fanservice does have this to say:

"Fanservice" is also sometimes used in a more general way, referring simply to any crowd-pleaser thrown in just because. When this is something non-sexual, like needlessly flashy attacks in a Humongous Mecha show, long guitar/bass/drum solos in a concert, or throwing in lots of obscure continuity references in a long-running work, it's Pandering to the Base. Sexy fanservice is considered the default form, because it is the one everybody seems to remember, and the easiest to add to any kind of show.

Edited by Synchronicity on Apr 10th 2021 at 2:31:59 PM

AGuy Since: Jun, 2009
#81: Apr 10th 2021 at 12:39:54 PM

It is difficult to make a general statement about men in impractical armor, although the page image on Chainmail Bikini already shows gendering. If they wanted to portray Conan and Sonja equally, he'd be in a thong, and would be in a Boobs-and-Butt Pose like she is.

That's not a fair comparison. The sort of thing that makes a woman attractive often does the opposite for men. They are sexualized differently. Most of the examples in Mr. Fanservice don't wear anything like a thong, for example.

Edited by AGuy on Apr 10th 2021 at 3:40:00 PM

I'm just.. a guy....
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#82: Apr 10th 2021 at 12:42:31 PM

I was trying to say that Conan is not as sexualized as Sonja in that image. Note how she's posed in a Boobs-and-Butt Pose despite being in a combat position, while his muscular arm is obscuring his manly chest. The point about the thong still stands though — his groin is much more protected than hers is for no real reason.

It's not just about outfit but also how the characters look, pose, etc.

Edited by Synchronicity on Apr 10th 2021 at 2:44:10 PM

AGuy Since: Jun, 2009
#83: Apr 10th 2021 at 12:55:37 PM

[up]Yeah, that's fair - I just drew issue with that particular statement. Not least of all because the way men and women are sexualized are inherently different, and we would likely have to discard most male examples if we were comparing them to how women are used for fanservice.

Edited by AGuy on Apr 10th 2021 at 4:21:18 AM

I'm just.. a guy....
HeavyMetalHermitCrab Since: Sep, 2018
#84: Apr 10th 2021 at 3:58:09 PM

I don't think there's a credible argument that Chainmail Bikini is anything other than fanservice, because the reason armor exists is to protect the body. A bikini made of chainmail covers maybe 25% of the body, and it doesn't adequately protect any of the areas you'd target if you wanted to incapacitate or kill someone quickly. There's no functional difference from fighting butt naked.

It's less "impractical" — full-plate armor is also impractical, but it somewhat works — and more "in direct defiance of all logic and common sense".

In the case of characters like Starfire, it would be just as easy to make the sun-powered character an avid outdoorsman or even a sunbather (because they can presumably *store* that solar energy for some time, else they'd lose all their powers the instant dusk fell) as it would be to dress them in roughly 3 square cm of fabric. But as noted, only one of those caters to the comic's intended audience. :P

shadowblack Since: Jun, 2010
#85: Apr 10th 2021 at 5:02:45 PM

While I agree that 99% of the time Chainmail Bikini is used for fanservice, it can have other uses. For example, a female gladiator wearing nothing but Chainmail Bikini (because that is all she has been given). Fanservice, right? Then the camera moves closer and you get a "loving look" at all of the woman's horrifying scars, old and new, that could have been avoided if she had been given proper armor. Suddenly it looks more like Fan Disservice instead...

My point is that we should not jump to conclusions, no matter how often a trope is used for fanservice.

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#86: Apr 10th 2021 at 5:08:40 PM

Fan Disservice is itself playing with the concept of fanservice so I do not see a need to work around that possibility.

Edited by Synchronicity on Apr 10th 2021 at 8:24:18 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#87: Apr 10th 2021 at 5:47:51 PM

Yeah, exactly. Fan Disservice exists because of the Fanservice. In your example, the fanservice is subverted, but still assumed to be in play until then.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
AGuy Since: Jun, 2009
#88: Apr 10th 2021 at 6:43:59 PM

[up][up][up][up]Full-plate armor was definitely not impractical in real life, when considering the contemporary weapons. Also, a mild nitpick on this point:

A bikini made of chainmail covers maybe 25% of the body, and it doesn't adequately protect any of the areas you'd target if you wanted to incapacitate or kill someone quickly. There's no functional difference from fighting butt naked.

Many examples cover the chest, which are definitely a location of vitals, but leave one's midriff exposed or similar. Many of the examples also include "boob plate" on a suit that otherwise fully covers the body. Boob plate armor would actually protect the wearer about as well as a typical design in most situations. It's gratuitous, yes - but real armor was often designed with aesthetics in mind.

As I've mentioned, male examples also fall under the trope (and the page itself has many male examples) - and it's not exactly easy to say that those examples are definitely done for fanservice, and not to fulfill a power fantasy. So Chainmail Bikini is not something we can instantly file as fanservice without considering the context of each example. After all, fanservice is hardly the only domain for impractical combat outfits.

That isn't to say that it isn't usually done for fanservice - because it definitely is - but it's not always done for that reason.

Edited by AGuy on Apr 10th 2021 at 9:55:35 AM

I'm just.. a guy....
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#89: Apr 10th 2021 at 7:00:54 PM

Keep in mind: Most Writers Are Male...and most of them are straight. Obviously they'll make the women a lot more fanservicey than the men. I can't think of a female example of Chainmail Bikini that isn't fanservice, and the male examples I'm not worried about because straight men won't sexualize other men (very often).

Edited by WarJay77 on Apr 10th 2021 at 10:01:06 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
AGuy Since: Jun, 2009
#90: Apr 10th 2021 at 7:36:23 PM

and the male examples I'm not worried about because straight men won't sexualize other men (very often).

May you please elaborate on what you mean here?

I'm just.. a guy....
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#91: Apr 10th 2021 at 7:53:18 PM

Straight men aren't going to add sexualized men into their stories. They aren't into it, and a lot of their primarily demographic isn't into it, and they'd rather focus on drawing things that they themselves would, ahem, get off on, and would rather sexualize the women because they themselves like sexy women and expect most of their audience also to like sexy women, whereas male fanservice isn't as common because you have less straight women / LGBT men behind the scenes.

Or, to put it in another words: Author Appeal meets sexual orientation meets an overrepresentation of straight men.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
AGuy Since: Jun, 2009
#92: Apr 10th 2021 at 7:57:26 PM

That's a very, very broad generalization, to say the least - many works don't just look to pander to one specific demographic, but seek to appeal to multiple demographics. There are many works that feature fanservice for women as well as men.

I'm just.. a guy....
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#93: Apr 10th 2021 at 8:04:47 PM

And those aren't the works I'm talking about.

I never said female fanservice doesn't exist. It very much does. But it's misleading to argue things like "Chainmail Bikini isn't always fanservice" just because male examples aren't usually fanservice-y, because the writers who use Chainmail Bikini are the type of writers who wouldn't want to fetishize male characters, or at least not in the same way.

When I first brought this up, I was referring to male fantasy and comic writers, who absolutely write with other men in mind and are more prone to sexualizing the women only. Hence why I brought it up when we were discussing Chainmail Bikini, a trope I've only ever seen sexualizing women. If male examples of the trope do exist, I can't imagine them being sexual. I just can't. The people who use that trope simply aren't the sort of people to sexualize men. It exists because male artists and writers want their cheesecake.

That's what I was arguing about in the first place. My original point was never intended to be so narrow and generalizing. You took my explanation out of context and are now complaining that I'm "generalizing" things, when I wasn't speaking generally to begin with.

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Crossover-Enthusiast from an abaondoned mall (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#94: Apr 10th 2021 at 8:07:05 PM

Nevermind!

Edited by Crossover-Enthusiast on Apr 10th 2021 at 11:07:37 AM

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AGuy Since: Jun, 2009
#95: Apr 10th 2021 at 8:09:14 PM

When I first brought this up, I was referring to male fantasy and comic writers, who absolutely write with other men in mind and are more prone to sexualizing the women only. Hence why I brought it up when we were discussing Chainmail Bikini, a trope I've only ever seen sexualizing women. If male examples of the trope do exist, I can't imagine them being sexual. I just can't. The people who use that trope simply aren't the sort of people to sexualize men. It exists because male artists and writers want their cheesecake.

Let me help you out, then, with some examples from the page (and there are more.)

  • Wolf in the Streets, Sardine in the Sheets: Desco suggests that this is the reason why Fenrich doesn't wear a shirt under his jacket:
    Desco: "Normally it's female armour that shows off more skin as it gets stronger, but Mr. Fenfen's jacket must be a rare case of strong and sexy male armour!"
    Fenrich: "What."
  • Any Martians in John Carter of Mars, whether they are male or female, will go into battle wearing only leather harnesses and ornaments and nothing else, as armor is unheard of in Barsoom.
  • Barbarians Of Lemuria has the Battle Harness boon, allowing male and female adventurers in the bare minimum of armor to treat it as medium armor without the weight and hassle.
  • GURPS:
    • It has, since at least the third edition, included a sidebar option called "Bulletproof Nudity". It's noted as being suitable only for cinematic or silly games, but includes armor bonuses ranging from 1 for a few strategic patches of skin to 8 for complete nudity... but only for attractive characters!
    • The GURPS 3rd Edition Magic Items books included the Chainmail Bikini "for body-proud barbarianettes" in two forms — a suit of chainmail with Invisibility spells on parts of it to make it look like a bikini; and a true bikini with magical-force-field-style protection on the exposed areas (they also had a male version, the Macho Leathers, which was a jockstrap and some other straps that provided the same protection as a full suit of armor — Equal Opportunity Fanservice ).

You can't say you're not "speaking generally" and then make a general statement like "If male examples of the trope do exist, I can't imagine them being sexual. I just can't."

Edited by AGuy on Apr 10th 2021 at 11:10:56 AM

I'm just.. a guy....
DivineFlame100 Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#96: Apr 10th 2021 at 8:12:31 PM

Please take that to another thread. This is not meant for a gender debate.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#97: Apr 10th 2021 at 8:28:30 PM

Only the last example sexualizes the men, though, so I'm not really wrong. I couldn't imagine a scenario where male characters were sexualized with a Chainmail Bikini, okay, they exist, fine, I didn't know that when I wrote my post. I'm not omniscient, man, I was speaking from my own experience and point of view. I wasn't saying these examples definitely never existed, I was stating my opinion based on what I knew.

Still, that doesn't disprove the main thesis, which is that Chainmail Bikini is an inherently sexualized trope. The male examples only make that even stronger, showing how it can be used to sexualize both genders.

The real hard part is finding a single female example that isn't fanservice (and isn't Fanservice Subverted or a ZCE that doesn't explain the outfit). And even if those examples exist (I mean, one might somewhere, again I'm not omniscient), it still doesn't really disprove the whole "Chainmail Bikini is a fanservice trope" idea. It started with male fanservice, and existed because male fantasy artists and writers wanted male fanservice, and most of the examples are male fanservice, I think it's safe to say that this trope is a fanservice trope with some rare male examples and a context issue.

Edit: I'm not trying to turn it into a gender debate either; I'm just trying to argue that the absence of a lot of female fanservice examples doesn't mean this isn't still a fanservice trope, because it's a trope predominantly associated with male fanservice.

Edited by WarJay77 on Apr 10th 2021 at 11:31:26 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#98: Apr 10th 2021 at 8:30:06 PM

I do feel A Guy is nitpicking here. We should be focusing on general trends, not edge cases, because the former is the backbone of tropes. If 80% of a Chainmail Bikini's usage is fanservice and 20% is just "a guy in skimpy armor for whatever reason" that doesn't mean it isn't a fanservice trope.

Edited by Synchronicity on Apr 10th 2021 at 10:38:57 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#99: Apr 10th 2021 at 8:38:04 PM

[up] That's right. If we get bogged down in specific examples, then no trope would ever be a fanservice trope, since there'd always be non-fanservice-y examples and other minority cases. General trends are the thing to focus on here, or at least in terms of how these tropes are generally applied. Any trope can be played with- it doesn't mean they don't have a base form that decides how they're expected to be used.

Ominous Knocking is a horror trope, for example, but that doesn't mean there isn't the possibility of parody, played for laughs examples, or subversions. Those examples doesn't mean the trope isn't used primarily to scare people.

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AGuy Since: Jun, 2009
#100: Apr 10th 2021 at 8:41:27 PM

[up][up][up]If you feel only the last example is sexualization, but also feel that it's impossible to use the trope without sexualizing women, do you believe that the second and third examples are sexualizing the women, but not the men? That can be possible - as I mentioned, men and women are sexualized in different ways. We would have to recognize that there is a double standard in our perception.

[up][up]It's the edge cases that cause edit wars and spawn forum topics. If we're going by the whole 80% thing, then I'd argue that Beach Episode would itself be a Fanservice trope, since they are very often out-of-place compared to the typical setting and feature characters in much skimpier outfits.

Edited by AGuy on Apr 10th 2021 at 11:45:23 AM

I'm just.. a guy....

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