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Ambiguous Name: N Word Privileges

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Deadlock Clock: Jul 4th 2021 at 11:59:00 PM
naturalironist from The Information Superhighway Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#51: May 11th 2021 at 4:21:45 PM

[up]I don't think the second bullet is an expansion. The description already describes the N-word as just one example. This bolded portion from the very beginning of the trope description is pretty much crowner bullet 2:

When people are not allowed to say derogatory slurs, or similar comments about a group of people, unless they are part of that group or otherwise granted special dispensation.

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"
crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#52: May 12th 2021 at 6:52:18 AM

I'm assuming the implication is that it's considered acceptable for him to refer to white Southerners as rednecks since he's a white Southerner himself.
Yes, I already said that it was self-deprecating. Can you provide evidence that people who aren't "white American Southerners" aren't supposed to make the same jokes at their expense?

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
GastonRabbit C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
C'est la vie. (he/him)
#53: May 12th 2021 at 6:58:33 AM

[up]I wasn't the one who claimed that (I probably should have made that more clear), and I don't know if it's true. I was referencing the N-Word Privileges example on his page:

I got a rock for Halloween.
crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#54: May 12th 2021 at 7:09:24 AM

I'm technically arguing against War Jay's position;

Then its not this trope. It isn't a privilege if everyone can do it.
Or that, if they're right, then there's a lot of cleanup needed. You're providing counterpoint to my posts because you're (unintentionally or not) presenting evidence that Redneck jokes are privileged slurs. I disagree; I don't think that "might be a redneck" jokes cannot be said by other ethnicities. Very few of his lines are from something that he personally experienced.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
GastonRabbit C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
C'est la vie. (he/him)
#55: May 12th 2021 at 7:14:53 AM

I don't really see "redneck" as being on the same level as the Trope Namer, either (speaking as a white person from a rural part of the Midwestern US), and since I'm not really familiar with his work, I can't speak for whoever added the N-Word Privileges example to his page.

Edit: I completely forgot that I said that I thought it counts until I went back a page (I'm pretty sure I was incredibly tired when I wrote that, so I probably didn't put much thought into that post). I'd actually like to retract that, between what you said and what I previously said in this post.

Edit: I previously accidentally said "that post" instead of "this post"; I meant the latter. That was embarrassing.

Edited by GastonRabbit on May 12th 2021 at 9:30:39 AM

I got a rock for Halloween.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#56: May 12th 2021 at 10:27:08 AM

But if that's true, then, Crazy, this trope is literally just about someone making jokes at their own expense, and becomes redundant with things like Self-Deprecation. That's why I think the "Privilege" part is important, and that there's gotta be some expectation in-universe for others to not say those things. Otherwise, the trope has to be renamed or expanded, because there's no privilege if everyone's allowed to do it.

But I also don't think it has to be a hard-and-fast rule that nobody else should be allowed to do it. I might be contradicting myself, but let me explain. See, tropes can be played with. I think it should count if, say, Bob makes rednecks jokes at his expense and then gets offended when Alice does it, even if the overall work still sides with Alice and portrays Bob as just being over-sensitive. I think as long as the sentiment is expressed in the story from at least one of the characters, then it counts as the trope whether or not the work itself takes that stance.

Am I making sense?

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#57: May 12th 2021 at 9:31:01 PM

I'm good with the rule that the Slur Privileges has the privilege explicitly stated. Reading implications into a scene that doesn't include such subtext (such as Jeff Foxworthy "redneck" jokes) is nebulous enough to allow anyone to claim all self-deprecating in-group insults as examples.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#58: May 12th 2021 at 9:36:55 PM

I like the idea of a "group self-deprecation" trope though. It could be a supertrope to Creator Career Self-Deprecation, and related to Offending the Creator's Own.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#59: May 12th 2021 at 9:37:57 PM

Right, the idea might have merit but I think this trope should stay more narrow.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#60: May 13th 2021 at 3:11:56 AM

The problem I see with the "self deprecation angle" is that I am pretty sure it has nothing to do with N-Word Privileges. That trope is about some people being allowed to use slurs that other people aren't. Nothing to do with self deprecation.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Willbyr Hi (Y2K) Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
GastonRabbit C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#63: May 13th 2021 at 10:09:13 AM

Well, it can overlap if someone wants to make a self-deprecating joke using the slur. And since we were talking about Jeff Foxworthy before, yeah, the self-deprecation overlap was on my mind at the time.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#64: May 13th 2021 at 10:39:42 AM

I think the shared connection is, "We can make a joke about this offensive stereotype but you can't," which is a sentiment that exists out there.

Plus nobody's arguing that we include the "identity self-deprecation" thing under this trope, but that maybe it could be its own trope and cover some of the N-Word Privileges misuse.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Twiddler (On A Trope Odyssey)
#65: May 13th 2021 at 3:58:28 PM

N-Word Privileges includes reclaiming of slurs, which has nothing to do with self-deprecation.

[down] That's fair, I kinda lost the thread of the conversation and was just responding/adding on to Sep's post above.

Edited by Twiddler on May 13th 2021 at 4:05:23 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#66: May 13th 2021 at 4:00:19 PM

...Like I said, telling a self-deprecating joke using the slur could fall under the trope too if the point is that nobody else can do it.

I never said the trope is about self-deprecation, just that it could happen.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#67: May 14th 2021 at 11:22:47 AM

...Soooooo should we just make a single prop to rename? Or are there other tweaks to the description that I missed? Consensus seems to be that self-deprecation about their group is not enough to count but could potentially be a separate thing, so it doesn't have to be on the crowner.

GastonRabbit C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
C'est la vie. (he/him)
#68: May 16th 2021 at 4:34:25 PM

[up]I can't think of anything other than renaming, but if we could potentially end up with options other than renaming, a Page Action crowner might be better than a Single Proposition crowner.

I got a rock for Halloween.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#69: May 17th 2021 at 1:43:55 AM

I am not convinced that a rename is actually the solution here. Feels more like we need a Shocking Profanity trope and a cleanup effort.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#70: May 17th 2021 at 7:02:29 AM

I don't know... Other tropes, such as This Is for Emphasis, Bitch! and Precision F-Strike, are overused enough that "Shocking Profanity" seems highly likely to become "Profanity".

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#71: May 17th 2021 at 7:06:58 AM

Just a cleanup is also a possibility, but I echo the comments made by others that one thing we shouldn't have are three or more separate pothole magnets for each profanity. Although I think a Profanity supertrope would work if we want one, as profanity is a legitimate dialogue trope.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#72: May 17th 2021 at 10:11:01 AM

[up] Not sure about "Profanity" on its own being a trope, but "Shocking Profanity" could work as a supertrope. Maybe make it no on-page examples due to how common it is, though.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
naturalironist from The Information Superhighway Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
GastonRabbit C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#75: May 17th 2021 at 11:44:53 AM

Maybe a better way to phrase it is Shock Value Profanity. So it wouldn't be "profanity that's shocking", but "profanity that's intended to shock the audience".

I'm not sure if this is the distinction I believe it is, but it might be enough to make it viable.

Oh, and Country Matters might be another subtrope.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall

SingleProposition: NWordPrivileges
18th May '21 12:24:13 PM

Crown Description:

N Word Privileges is misused for cases where group-specific slurs and insults are used without pointing out the "privilege" of those groups to say those words. Should it be renamed? If no, examples will be cleaned.

Total posts: 91
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