I don't think the second bullet is an expansion. The description already describes the N-word as just one example. This bolded portion from the very beginning of the trope description is pretty much crowner bullet 2:
I wasn't the one who claimed that (I probably should have made that more clear), and I don't know if it's true. I was referencing the N-Word Privileges example on his page:
- N-Word Privileges: What makes his act work. If some hipster from New York was making those "if X, you might be a redneck" jokes it'd come off as condescending and mean-spirited instead of wryly self-aware Affectionate Parody.
I'm technically arguing against War Jay's position;
I don't really see "redneck" as being on the same level as the Trope Namer, either (speaking as a white person from a rural part of the Midwestern US), and since I'm not really familiar with his work, I can't speak for whoever added the N-Word Privileges example to his page.
Edit: I completely forgot that I said that I thought it counts until I went back a page (I'm pretty sure I was incredibly tired when I wrote that, so I probably didn't put much thought into that post). I'd actually like to retract that, between what you said and what I previously said in this post.
Edit: I previously accidentally said "that post" instead of "this post"; I meant the latter. That was embarrassing.
Edited by GastonRabbit on May 12th 2021 at 9:30:39 AM
I got a rock for Halloween.But if that's true, then, Crazy, this trope is literally just about someone making jokes at their own expense, and becomes redundant with things like Self-Deprecation. That's why I think the "Privilege" part is important, and that there's gotta be some expectation in-universe for others to not say those things. Otherwise, the trope has to be renamed or expanded, because there's no privilege if everyone's allowed to do it.
But I also don't think it has to be a hard-and-fast rule that nobody else should be allowed to do it. I might be contradicting myself, but let me explain. See, tropes can be played with. I think it should count if, say, Bob makes rednecks jokes at his expense and then gets offended when Alice does it, even if the overall work still sides with Alice and portrays Bob as just being over-sensitive. I think as long as the sentiment is expressed in the story from at least one of the characters, then it counts as the trope whether or not the work itself takes that stance.
Am I making sense?
Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper WallI'm good with the rule that the Slur Privileges has the privilege explicitly stated. Reading implications into a scene that doesn't include such subtext (such as Jeff Foxworthy "redneck" jokes) is nebulous enough to allow anyone to claim all self-deprecating in-group insults as examples.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.I like the idea of a "group self-deprecation" trope though. It could be a supertrope to Creator Career Self-Deprecation, and related to Offending the Creator's Own.
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.Right, the idea might have merit but I think this trope should stay more narrow.
Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper WallThe problem I see with the "self deprecation angle" is that I am pretty sure it has nothing to do with N-Word Privileges. That trope is about some people being allowed to use slurs that other people aren't. Nothing to do with self deprecation.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanWell, it can overlap if someone wants to make a self-deprecating joke using the slur. And since we were talking about Jeff Foxworthy before, yeah, the self-deprecation overlap was on my mind at the time.
Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper WallI think the shared connection is, "We can make a joke about this offensive stereotype but you can't," which is a sentiment that exists out there.
Plus nobody's arguing that we include the "identity self-deprecation" thing under this trope, but that maybe it could be its own trope and cover some of the N-Word Privileges misuse.
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.N-Word Privileges includes reclaiming of slurs, which has nothing to do with self-deprecation.
That's fair, I kinda lost the thread of the conversation and was just responding/adding on to Sep's post above.
Edited by Twiddler on May 13th 2021 at 4:05:23 AM
...Like I said, telling a self-deprecating joke using the slur could fall under the trope too if the point is that nobody else can do it.
I never said the trope is about self-deprecation, just that it could happen.
Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
I can't think of anything other than renaming, but if we could potentially end up with options other than renaming, a Page Action crowner might be better than a Single Proposition crowner.
I am not convinced that a rename is actually the solution here. Feels more like we need a Shocking Profanity trope and a cleanup effort.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanJust a cleanup is also a possibility, but I echo the comments made by others that one thing we shouldn't have are three or more separate pothole magnets for each profanity. Although I think a Profanity supertrope would work if we want one, as profanity is a legitimate dialogue trope.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Not sure about "Profanity" on its own being a trope, but "Shocking Profanity" could work as a supertrope. Maybe make it no on-page examples due to how common it is, though.
Maybe a better way to phrase it is Shock Value Profanity. So it wouldn't be "profanity that's shocking", but "profanity that's intended to shock the audience".
I'm not sure if this is the distinction I believe it is, but it might be enough to make it viable.
Oh, and Country Matters might be another subtrope.
Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Crown Description:
N Word Privileges is misused for cases where group-specific slurs and insults are used without pointing out the "privilege" of those groups to say those words. Should it be renamed? If no, examples will be cleaned.
