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The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

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Hawkeye86 Spirit of Battle from Classified (Searching for Spock) Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Spirit of Battle
#4601: Aug 9th 2022 at 9:16:42 PM

[up]Seeing how the series was written and already filming before the Covid lockdown started, I doubt it is supposed to be a parallel.

You and I remember Budapest very differently
Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#4602: Aug 10th 2022 at 5:01:00 AM

I decided to look up an interview on it and it said this

“It turned into a weird opportunity that, while the world was changing, we were also able to really sharpen our focus.” “Once we were shut down through COVID, we didn’t skip a beat and went straight into post-production and were able to continue editing and just sharpened the pencil,” Skogland said. “While the world was changing, we were really able to sharpen our focus. When we went back, we really knew what we were going for, what we were shooting for to finalize the series. It didn’t change anything, it really just helped us focus, I guess.”

So from what I can gather, it did not inspire the show initually but it did influence the final product, as the pandemic helped them find 'what they were going for' and such.

Bow to the Prototype
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#4603: Aug 10th 2022 at 7:15:21 AM

I mean. Influence in that they were able to put their heads down and work on it. COVID "inspired" it in the sense that it inspired me to get a home gym.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#4604: Aug 10th 2022 at 4:50:44 PM

I guess I misread the wording then, I thought what they were saying was something along the lines of them already having most of the plot and such with the show but Covid helped them really get an idea of what they were going for when finalizing it

Perhaps I should not have focused too much on the Covid thing as there are more cases of what I brought up in the show

Looking at previous Forum conversations that is not exactly a hot take.

Bow to the Prototype
Chortleous she/her friend to the hooved (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: She does the things you do, but she is an IBM
she/her friend to the hooved
#4605: Aug 11th 2022 at 7:13:30 AM

...it really doesn't feel like they 'sharpened their focus', in all honesty.

Hawkeye86 Spirit of Battle from Classified (Searching for Spock) Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Spirit of Battle
#4606: Aug 11th 2022 at 9:02:11 AM

Yea, that's clearly just Hollywood PR speak. Even ignoring the rumors that the show was originally going to be about a pandemic and was changed last minute, the show had to take what was already filmed, adjust what they planned on filming so they could follow the Covid work restrictions, as well as abridge the script down. The show ends up being a bit of a mess, not more focused.

You and I remember Budapest very differently
diddyknux (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#4607: Aug 29th 2022 at 5:32:18 PM

I've been working through the Disney+ Marvel shows, and finished The Falcon and the Winter Soldier. I really liked it. It definitely has some rough edges, but I had a good time. If it can be discussed civilly, why is this show so divisive? Is it mainly the "sympathy to terrorists" thing? Because that honestly wasn't the impression I got, I thought the show was quite clear in sympathizing with the fact that The Blip has caused a lot of trouble that needs to be addressed, but condemning the Flag Smashers actions as not being a just answer either (and for what its worth, everytime Karli escalates further, her comrades get more uneasy about it).

I think the show's bigger problem is Walker's character arc. He got too intense too fast, I think. And he still seems intense and in denial in the fifth episode. So in the last episode his redemption also feels too fast. But I'm also not sure it is a full on redemption, because he suits up as US Agent for Obviously Shady Val... Though I actually don't mind Sam and Bucky giving him the cold shoulder. It did seem petty at first, but they're just too close to the idea of Captain America to be objective, and John, for his part, doesn't seem good at handling the pressure

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#4608: Aug 29th 2022 at 5:41:53 PM

[up] The big issue with the Flagsmasher plotline is that it wasn't until very late into the show's run when we actually get to know what exactly the GRC is doing that is driving the Flagsmashers to such extremes.

This is probably less noticeable if you are watching it all in rapid succession, but when viewers spent over a month being told that the Flagsmasher's have a sympathetic motive without explaining what it is despite it not being a secret, it is very noticeable.

Plus the Kill em All ending they got felt gratuitous.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#4609: Aug 29th 2022 at 5:42:44 PM

Generally, the show is divisive because it takes a somewhat conciliatory centrist tone that a lot of people weren't feeling in the current divided political landscape. Many fans felt that the Flagsmashers were coded Antifa and the GRC was coded as a sort of super-ICE deporting en masse immigrants.

Except the GRC's actions actually were so grandiose and super-horrifying (mass deportation of millions qualifying as genocide according to many definitions) that they felt the show suffered Moral Myopia by not having Falcon actively trying to destroy them.

Plus many people assumed Walker would be a Homelander-esque figure embodying Trumpian America versus a good man who just wasn't up to snuff. The Police Brutality that wasn't treated as a Moral Event Horizon also left a bad taste in the mouth of the public. Even if the victim of such was a murderer of a black man (and indeed BECAUSE it was set up to make the police brutality understandable).

The fact the show runners said that Karli and company were meant to represent Jan 6thers when they went after the GRC was also such rididiculous ass covering and Blatant Lies that it became even harder to take the show's politics seriously.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 29th 2022 at 5:43:31 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#4610: Aug 29th 2022 at 5:50:52 PM

And of course, everyone chooses to ignore (due to the horrifying nature of the proposed GRC action) that it's explicitly being taken in response to the Flagsmasher actions and very much cannot retroactively justify those.

ETA: Which is part of, as mentioned above, extremely unclear and confused politics which basically amount to 'we want to say something deep, but don't want to piss off any potential viewers.'

Edited by ECD on Aug 29th 2022 at 5:51:53 AM

diddyknux (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#4611: Aug 29th 2022 at 5:52:04 PM

I guess the slow burn must've really mattered, because I didn't feel like the Flag Smashers motivations were all that unclear.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#4612: Aug 29th 2022 at 5:57:15 PM

Terrorism bad.

Trust the system.

And of course, everyone chooses to ignore (due to the horrifying nature of the proposed GRC action) that it's explicitly being taken in response to the Flagsmasher actions and very much cannot retroactively justify those.

Apparently they've just skipped over, "And we put millions of people in camps after the Blip" which is...wait, what?

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 29th 2022 at 5:59:43 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
diddyknux (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#4613: Aug 29th 2022 at 6:00:57 PM

"Terrorism bad, trust the system." Where the hell does that idea come from, the system is shown having screwed over people all the time.

Edited by diddyknux on Aug 29th 2022 at 8:02:14 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#4614: Aug 29th 2022 at 6:03:41 PM

The idea the genocidal deportation happy government types are able to be persuaded to back down through the power of a Patrick Stewart Speech.

Which...feels a bit naive right now.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#4615: Aug 29th 2022 at 6:17:52 PM

[up][up][up]We've had this argument before and it went round in circles. So I'll just say I disagree with that interpretation of what we saw.

Turning back to the initial question, I think the main problem is that the narrative simultaneously wants you to sympathize with the Flagsmasher and then has to clear them off the board so there aren't a bunch more super-soldiers running around, while keeping the new U.S. Agent for upcoming stuff.

Which means that for anyone who thinks the Flagsmashers are arrogant murderous children who are only making the situation worse...well, the show doesn't work because it wants you to sympathize with them. For anyone who thinks the Flagsmashers are right and standing up to a genocidal and quasi-fascist regime...well, they lose utterly, all die and what political action occurs happens through talking rather than revolutionary violence. And for those with more centrist opinions...well, their only representation is cowardly, murderous government officials who have to rescued and lectured by our heroes (who never actually resolve the perfectly legitimate question of what they should do).

So, basically no one is happy, politically.

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#4616: Aug 29th 2022 at 6:39:48 PM

I think it wasn't the waiting that killed it for me but the finale:

  • Flagsmashers: We are lashing out because we don't wanna get mass deported and also we are dead.
  • Walker: I know I just murdered a dude the other episode at a time when extrajudicial killings by white state-sponsored guys are looking especially bad, but I'm good now!
  • Sam to government officials: Do better. No I will not elaborate. Do better.

Edited by Synchronicity on Aug 29th 2022 at 8:41:15 AM

Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#4617: Aug 29th 2022 at 10:52:55 PM

The Flag-Smashers is the worst example of "Our villain has way too much of a point, so we are going to have them murder a whole hospital full of children for no other reason other than villain bad."

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#4618: Aug 29th 2022 at 11:41:17 PM

Which, fair enough, happens often enough in RL.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Nightwire Since: Feb, 2010
#4619: Aug 29th 2022 at 11:55:23 PM

[up]Cite your sources, please. I would like to know.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#4620: Aug 29th 2022 at 11:59:32 PM

You feel that justified causes don't engage in horrible violence? Alright, how about the French Revolution? Absolutely justified but the Reign of Terror.

I mean, we could be here all day but just about every historical revolt in history has innocent blood spilled. I'm not sure we want to get into the specifics, though.

I'd be more interested in knowing when revolts happen that don't end in innocent bloodshed.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 30th 2022 at 12:03:29 PM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#4621: Feb 5th 2023 at 6:23:24 PM

Why on earth did "Val" want John Walker as US Agent.

Dude lost pretty much every fight he was in and got his ass kicked even with the Super Soldier serum. Granted Sam didn't do much better but at least he looked cool.

I missed what happened in the last episode. There was a Flag Smasher involved in the arrest, but somebody else killed them all anyway? Was that Val and her people.

Sharon Carter broke bad. So how many groups of interest have cropped up now post-Snap?

Edited by FOFD on Feb 5th 2023 at 9:32:28 AM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#4622: Feb 5th 2023 at 6:24:54 PM

Zemo's butler arranged to have the police van they were in blown up

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
MurlocAggroB from the second-most ridiculous province of Canada Since: May, 2015
#4623: Feb 6th 2023 at 12:22:48 PM

Why on earth did "Val" want John Walker as US Agent.

Because he's a loyal soldier with legitimate superpowers that's willing to do amoral things. Seems like a perfect fit for her team.

To be fair, maybe Thunderbolts will have a more interesting answer than that. We'll have to wait and see.

Edited by MurlocAggroB on Feb 6th 2023 at 2:22:56 PM

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Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#4624: Feb 6th 2023 at 12:31:33 PM

He is highly decorated, in top shape and patriotic. From a neutral point of view, he is perfect.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#4625: Feb 7th 2023 at 7:55:09 PM

If anybody's interested, youtuber Princess Weekes has put up an hour-long dissertation on The Falcon and the Winter Soldier and how it engages with the respectability politics of revolution, as well as how it connects with the history of black superheroes in comics.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

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