How about the crowner only be about if we should expand 0% Approval Rating to include all characters or create a Super-Trope for that since that seems to be the big problem.
CM Sandboxes, MB SandboxesI think I have an idea of how to do things, but it involves multiple crowners:
1. Use crazysamaritan's crowner to decide which concepts are tropeworthy. (Based on the consensus ranges of the original crowner, I disagree with the claim that all three have been deemed tropeworthy, hence why I agree with hashing out which ones are tropeworthy.)
2. Put the definitions within consensus range on a second crowner, and use said crowner to decide which definition is used for 0% Approval Rating. If anything other than the broadest definition is used for 0% Approval Rating, whatever's left would be sent to TLP or the Salvage Yard.
3. If necessary (mainly if definition 3 of crazysamaritan's crowner, which is the broadest, isn't used for 0% Approval Rating, since expanding it that much would make cleanup less necessary), see if we need to rename 0% Approval Rating.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 5th 2021 at 5:40:41 AM
2 ÷ 0Which concepts do you think are untropeworthy?
CM Sandboxes, MB SandboxesI haven't really thought about that. I was commenting on what others voted on in the original crowner.
2 ÷ 0The original crowner was more focused on what should be done with the trope not about which concept was tropeworthy.
CM Sandboxes, MB SandboxesMe, I am more concerned about the fact that such complex crowners often aren't implemented. Does anyone promise they'll be working on these options if they pass?
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanHow about the following:
- A trope for national leaders being hated by their citizens.
- A trope for authority figures being hated by their subordinates (encompasses 1).
- A trope for characters being hated by everyone (encompasses 1 and 2).
- Turn 0% Approval Rating into a disambiguation between whichever of the other three results comes out of TLP. Note that this is essentially renaming the article and creating at least one new trope.
Edited by crazysamaritan on Apr 7th 2021 at 12:28:41 PM
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.At this point, I am honestly tempted to create a TLP draft for an "everyone hates a character" trope on my own and give up on 0% Approval Rating this trope seems beyond saving.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes...Where did that come from? Why do you think this trope is unsalvageable?
Still find the wording a bit confusing and vague (since again I'm not clear on if it's asking what's tropeworthy or what tropes we should have or what ZPAR should cover), but that might just be me. I don't want to keep nitpicking crowners, so if everyone else is cool with that version then I'll relent.
Current Project: The TeamThe fact we are now at 4 pages with us just constantly arguing about how the trope should be used with the crowner not helping at all says to me this trope is unsavable.
CM Sandboxes, MB SandboxesMight want to check out the TRS morgue, then. Long threads aren't very uncommon, it just means there's a lot to hash out. Jumping to the worst case scenario though isn't helpful, it's more disruptive than just joining the debate and helping us figure out the crowner.
Current Project: The TeamI am trying to help the best I can by giving my opinions and arguments but nobody can agree on it. Also, I was the one who started the thread.
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes...Okay, I think my original post here was too aggressive. I've rewritten it for calmer take.
The thing is, four pages really isn't that long. The issue is that you're just giving up all hope after, what...2 pages of discussion? I'm not counting page 3, since that was crowner talk, not discussing the actual trope. Then you're saying it's because "nobody can agree", but that's not really how I see it. I read back the other two pages and I'm not seeing a whole lot of debate, just people giving their thoughts and discussing things. The only person who really seems to be dissenting here is, well, you, and that's okay, but you can't blame us for not all agreeing with your take on the trope.
Edited by WarJay77 on Apr 7th 2021 at 1:12:37 PM
Current Project: The TeamI am sorry if I have come across that way. The thing is it is really hard to give responses to opinions since well they are opinions for a reason, I am not trying to say my opinion is the only valid one but it is my opinion, which I am willing to state. What i have been trying to say is that nobody can seem to agree on what exactly to do with the trope.
CM Sandboxes, MB SandboxesStating your opinion is all well and good, but we're at the stage where we're trying to decide what to do with the trope- where just stating your opinion isn't doing any good anymore, because these discussions need more substance, more debate, more thought. Hence all the crowner talk. That's how TRS things get hashed out- by vote.
Current Project: The TeamIf you want more discussion as to why I think we should just expand 0% Approval Rating to include everyone I would be willing to try and give more concise reasons.
1. The trope is already being used widely that way so splitting up the trope or performing a massive cleanup would take a lot of time and be wasted on when here is (in my opinion) a better option.
2. If the trope was to cover all characters then it would also cover rules and authority figures making the idea of a trope covering them or split up not really needed.
3. It would mean that we wouldn't need to rename the trope which if we are going to keep it to authority figures would almost certainly be needed since the name is a big reason why the trope is so widely misused, to begin with.
4. The idea of a character being hated by everyone is a tropeworthy concept and the name 0% Approval Rating is a perfect name for it, by doing anything else would be n my opinion just overcomplicating things.
CM Sandboxes, MB SandboxesI'm going to dissent with your point 3 and the name part of point 4.
The phrase "0% Approval Rating" comes from political opinion polls. I'm not sure if this is a US-specific thing, or with a broader base. Outside of TvT, it almost always refers to a political leader. There is some usage referring other types of authority figure — fiefdom/kingdom/leadership metaphors come into play when discussing office politics or sticky family situations.
If this trope needs to be expanded to cover all universally disliked characters, why not call it Hated by All?
Edited by underCoverSailsman on Apr 7th 2021 at 12:53:08 PM
There we go now we have some discussion going with arguments. Anyway, that is a fair point though at the same time 0% Approval Rating doesn't seem to be working for only rules as a name as well as evidence my how much misuse it is suffering. Maybe the best course of action would be to turn 0% Approval Rating into a disambig for whatever tropes this TRS creates.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Apr 19th 2021 at 4:49:24 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB SandboxesSo what are we going to do there hasn't been much activity in this thread the crowned didn't go anywhere and there is a lot of disagreements on how this trope should be handled?
CM Sandboxes, MB SandboxesNo crowners have been hooked yet. I still think we should start with crazysamaritan's proposed crowner (link to post) to decide which of the listed concepts should be covered by this trope and which of the other concepts are worth sending to TLP if this trope doesn't end up covering them.
Edit: Accidentally linked to the crowner he was opposed to instead of the one he actually proposed (I don't think it had been made); I've fixed that.
Another edit: Went ahead and made the proposed crowner myself.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 26th 2021 at 6:04:24 AM
2 ÷ 0Crowner hooked
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.That works, but I don't really understand why the idea of a Hated By Everyone trope is being downvoted. It seems people might be mistaken that this is to decide what 0% Approval Rating is going to encompass.
CM Sandboxes, MB SandboxesHere's the thing. Even if that option is downvoted, nothing is stopping you from just taking that idea to TLP yourself. It's not like the concept is banned from being a trope forever.
Current Project: The TeamWe previously had this post from me and this post from crazysamaritan regarding what to do after the current crowner is called. I haven't been feeling the best lately, so I'm too worn out to think about which of those options I'd prefer, but I still thought I'd link to those posts for reference purposes.
(I actually forgot about those two posts until I went back through the thread to find the original proposal for the currently hooked crowner.)
Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 26th 2021 at 10:03:38 AM
2 ÷ 0
Crown Description:
Zero Percent Approval Rating is currently limited to national leaders being disliked. It has suffered misuse for more than just national-level leadership. Names will be decided with a different crowner; this is to identify which concepts are tropeable. If more than one achieves consensus, a new trope will be created.
I guess it works but this crowner still feels like an unnecessary extra step since nobody is debating about tropeworthiness.
Edit: to be clear, I'm not saying the other crowner is better, but I do think this one isn't ideal either and that we could still do better.
Edited by WarJay77 on Apr 5th 2021 at 6:33:43 AM
Current Project: The Team