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Misused: The Sociopath

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Deadlock Clock: Apr 9th 2021 at 11:59:00 PM
Stellarvore Since: Apr, 2016
#1: Feb 10th 2021 at 1:20:15 PM

So, I just got the 86 wick checks I need for The Sociopath to be considered for a repair. Hopefully the third time's a charm? Over in The Sociopath cleanup thread, we've discussed settling on a definition that would prevent any further misuses of the trope.

Basically, I've seen it misused a lot for characters that just so happen to do horrible things that they don't show or feel any regret for, often focusing more on their atrocities than anything that could truly diagnose a character as a sociopath and pairing the diagnosis with Complete Monster candidates, even if the character shows other traits that wouldn't befit a sociopath in the slightest and would better fit, say, a Sadist, as per the description on the trope page. Other examples are just completely shoehorned in and read way too much into a character (ESPECIALLY from children's works), and some are just too vague. Anyway, I now present my case.

Shoehorned examples

From Characters.Diary Of A Wimpy Kid:

  • The Sociopath:
    • His Lack of Empathy. For instance, despite being bullied by his older brother Rodrick and knowing how painful it is, he treats Rowley more or less the same way. See Hypocrite above. In addition, despite being an outcast, Greg feels no empathy for Fregley and looks down on him. It’s even worse when he only hangs with him for his own personal gain. The first instance was to make Rowley jealous and the second time was to mold Fregley into another Rowley.
    • Greg is a pathological liar, often coming up with stuff that's completely false. For instance, in Double Down, he doesn't eat his apple and his mom figures it out. Greg then comes up with a big lie about how a bully ate his fruit and sent rude letters. He also lied about his reading abilities in the very first book to get into an easier class. He's also a manipulator, seen through his treatment of Rowley. In Dog Days, he tries to trick Rowley into all of the work.
    • Need for stimulation: A mild example, Greg is quite addicted to video games and TV, and finds himself bored without them. He also camped outside a gaming store with Rowley
    • Grandiose sense of self: Greg thinks of himself highly and is has an ego larger than Jupiter. As mentioned in Narcissist above, this is why he keeps a journal, because of expectations of being rich and famous. Hell, his expectations of being rich and famous in general are a good example of this and expects to have a reality TV show in middle school. He even claims he’ll have his own national holiday in the same vein as Dr. King.
  • Sociopathic Hero: At his absolute worst.

I haven't read those books, but someone else argued that that's reading too deep into a children's book, and I'm inclined to agree. Besides that, he has Jerk with a Heart of Gold and Pet the Dog on his sheet. Here's another shoehorned example that was removed over a year ago, D.W. from Arthur:

Mm. Yeah. No. Again, that's reading WAY too much into a kid's show, and plus in at least one episode, she feels bad after making Arthur melt by whispering something cruel in his ear. Granted, that was in a dream, but I figure that's enough to show she's capable of acknowledging her wrongdoings, especially since she's so horrified when she wakes up.

Misused or written like a Complete Monster entry:

Faust: Love of the Damned (pothole was changed to Sadist by another troper):

  • The Sociopath:
    • M, a powerful demon who's willing to torture, rape and murder anybody he has to to bring about the Apocalypse.
    • Claire, M's Dark Mistress, who willingly goes along with her lover's apocalyptic scheme, slits a guy's throat during sex, and tries to overthrow him.

The Conjuring: (deleted)

  • The Sociopath: Bathsheba Sherman, a Satanist witch who tried to sacrifice her baby to Satan, killing herself when she was caught. Her spirit haunts anybody who moves into her old house, tormenting the occupants until she can possess the mother to murder the children.

Nightbreed: (Decker was edited and Eigermann removed)

  • The Sociopath:
    • Dr. Philip Decker, a Psycho Psychologist who kills families because he despises humanity, gaslights Boone into thinking he did them, and declares war on the Nightbreed for no apparent reason. Throughout all this, he remains deathly calm, seemingly feeling nothing but hatred.
    • Captain Eigerman, a Rabid Cop who makes no pretense of pleasantries even when speaking with other departments, and decides to slaughter the Nightbreed for seemingly no reason other than sick thrills.

Where the Dead Go to Die: (yes, yes, I know; anyway, deleted because it's just another "bad person does bad things" example)

  • The Sociopath: Daddy, who makes child porn of his daughter and hangs her from the ceiling when he dislikes her behaviour.

The Girl Next Door: (changed back to an earlier version that was fine as is, though I wonder if Ruth's sadism disqualifies her)

  • The Sociopath: Ruth Chandler, a woman who firmly believes that all women are sluts and proceeds to lead her sons in tormenting her niece according to that principle. She watches without blinking as said niece is raped, and turns out to be personally molesting her other niece. She has the charisma to manipulate her kids into committing atrocities, but never once shows any real care for them.

Goth (2003): (haven't done anything with it)

  • The Sociopath: Goth, a madwoman who believes that the true goth lifestyle is raping and murdering anybody she pleases. She spends the film trying to corrupt a couple into her lifestyle, succeeding with one of them.

Mandy (2018) (deleted; Jeremiah is a narcissist and therefore not a sociopath as per the main description of the latter)

  • The Sociopath: Jeremiah Sand, a rich man who killed his parents for their inheritance, and now goes around founding cults to cater to his will. He believes that he's chosen by God to own the world, and can destroy anybody who stands between him and his desires, and he treats even his own followers like shit.

Gutterballs (left it alone for now)

  • The Sociopath: Steve, who's cool with raping a woman with a baseball bat because her friends fought back when he bullied one of their own.

Satan's Little Helper (deleted)

  • The Sociopath: The Satan Man, a man in a costume who shows up and starts killing people, including a baby and an old woman, with no rhyme or reason behind it beyond a love of chaos.

Tales of Halloween (deleted)

  • The Sociopath:
    • Sweet Tooth, a ghost who killed his parents because they ate his Halloween candy and now kills others for candy.
    • Mr. Abaddon, a demon who frames his neighbour for a crime spree because the kid pranked him.
    • The main characters of "Trick," who torture a bunch of children for no apparent reason.

Tetsuo: The Iron Man (deleted)

  • The Sociopath: Yatsu the Metal Fetishist, who turns a guy into a metal abomination because he ran him over, and intends to do the same to the entire world.

Scalps

  • The Sociopath: Black Claw, an undead Native American soldier who believes rape and murder are justified punishments for grave robbery.

American Justice:

  • The Sociopath: Sheriff Payden, who uses his police department as a protection racket and murders people at the slightest annoyance.

Perfect Assassins:

  • The Sociopath: Dr. Samuel Greely, who experiments on psychologically torturing children into becoming assassins, frames his assistants to prevent him from being caught, and laughs at his victims being beaten.

Teenagers from Outer Space:

  • The Sociopath: Thor, a fanatical soldier willing to commit genocide to prove his species' superiority. Despite his fanaticism, he's not actually loyal to his commanders, willing to defy orders to take a deserter alive.

Trancers:

  • The Sociopath: Martin Whistler, a criminal who tried to take over the world with mind controlled zombies, and when he's thwarted decides to prevent the people who saved the world from destruction in the backstory from ever existing.

Wizards of the Demon Sword:

He Knows You're Alone:

  • The Sociopath: Ray Carlton, a Serial Killer who murders brides the night before their weddings solely because he was rejected years ago.

100 Bloody Acres:

  • The Sociopath: Lindsay Morgan, a fertilizer owner who makes his product out of corpses, and is not above killing anybody, including his own brother, to keep it going.

Cure:

  • The Sociopath: Kunihiko Mamiya, an amnesiac Serial Killer who hypnotizes people into committing the most brutal of atrocities, and loves to play mind games with the detective pursuing him.

22 Bullets:

  • The Sociopath: Pascal Vassetto, a hitman who dispatches his targets in the most brutal ways possible, such as feeding them to dogs, and doesn't think twice about murdering a child.

Mulan: Rise of a Warrior:

  • The Sociopath: Mengdu, a prince who's introduced killing prisoners for fun, starts a war to avoid punishment, and kills his own father to keep it going.

The Black Cobra:

  • The Sociopath: The bandit leader, who believes that true freedom is to cause chaos and hurt people for fun, but abandons his men to die when the heroes come for them.

The Colony (2016):

  • The Sociopath: Paul Schafer, a cult leader who agrees to become a torturer for a dictator and molests the children of his parishioners.

Black Sunday:

  • The Sociopath: Princess Asa Vadja, a Wicked Witch so feared that her own brother killed her and sealed her soul in her tomb. When she returns from the grave, death hasn't changed her one bit and she decides to kill her entire family because of his actions, in spite of them being her righteous punishment for the numerous horrid crimes that she had committed.

Blood of Beasts:

  • The Sociopath: Sven, a beloved warrior who wishes to rule his tribe, leaves his chieftain to die to do so, threatens to murder his best friend to keep the secret, and intends to marry Princess Freya and bear her children to make his rule legitimate.

Zombie Cop: (maybe a sociopath, given that second sentence, but still treats it like an afterthought)

  • The Sociopath: Dr. Death, a voodoo priest that intends to zombify a school full of children to cleanse their parents' "sins", despite being a drug dealer and Serial Killer himself. He doesn't even care for his brother, whom he ostensibly wants to avenge, only mentioning him as a useful tool.

The Brain (1988):

  • The Sociopath: Dr. Anthony Blakely, a psychologist who intends to sell the world to mind control by an alien Brain Monster. Even the reveal that he's also an alien doesn't make him less sociopathic, since we see no indication that that's what all his species are like.

Werewolves on Wheels:

  • The Sociopath: One, a Satanic cultist who murders animals and women for his magic rituals, and turns two bikers into werewolves to kill the rest of their gang when they rescue one of his sacrifices.

The Tooth Fairy (2006):

  • The Sociopath: Elizabeth Craven, a witch who murders children for their teeth and traps their souls on Earth to power her magic.

Alien Outlaw:

  • The Sociopath: The leader alien comes to Earth to murder and rape for fun, and abandons his alien buddies at the slightest trouble.

Jack-O:

  • The Sociopath: Walter Machen, an Evil Sorcerer out to destroy the town that hanged him for his crimes. When he learns that a specific child can destroy the automaton he controls to commit his crimes., he orders said child Buried Alive.

Hack-O-Lantern:

  • The Sociopath: Grandpa Drindle, who leads a Satanic cult, raped his daughter, and is corrupting the boy borne of that rape to become his successor.

The Exterminators of the Year 3000:

  • The Sociopath: Crazy Bull, a bandit leader who hoards water, brutally murders anybody who tries to drink any, and has the storage blown up upon his death so nobody can have it.

Escape 2000:

  • The Sociopath: Floyd Wengler, a mercenary who'll commit genocide for money, and betray his boss for the same.

The Black Belly of the Tarantula:

  • The Sociopath: Mario learned he enjoys killing women after murdering his wife, and decides to paralyze his future victims with tarantula hawk wasp venom to make their deaths slower.

The Mad Monster:

  • The Sociopath: Dr. Lorenzo Cameron, a Mad Scientist who considers the werewolf he created murdering a child to be a success, and intends to butcher the scientists who mocked his ideas. He even only describes his "love" for his daughter in terms of its benefit to him.

The Vampire Bat:

  • The Sociopath: Dr. Otto von Neimann brainwashes a guy and then has him kill people and drain their blood for his experiments in creating life. He even kills his maid, the one person he seems to care about.

All-Star Superman:

  • The Sociopath: Solaris the Tyrant Sun, a computer that goes around destroying stars for no apparent reason, and decides to make Earth worship it as a god.

Time After Time:

  • The Sociopath: Dr. John Leslie Stevenson, better known as Jack the Ripper, kills for fun and steals a time machine to keep killing throughout time with nobody to stop him.

Frontier(s): (saw it a long time ago and don't remember it well myself, but this one's also a maybe)

  • The Sociopath: Karl von Geisler, Sr., a Nazi who fled to France and founded a hotel where he started a Cannibal Clan. He views his family as henchmen, only liking Karl Jr. because he's competent, and kidnapped a little girl to use as his personal Sex Slave.

Dead Heat:

  • The Sociopath: Arthur P. Laudermilk and Dr. Ernest McNab. The former wants to make immortality for rich people because he believes they're better than the poor, and the latter is willing to experiment on people and bury them alive so he can get big bucks from this scheme.

The Web:

  • The Sociopath: Andrew Colby, who framed a business partner for embezzlement, arranges things so that he can murder him when he gets out of prison, then kills anybody, including his bodyguard and nearly his daughter, who tries to figure out the truth.

Dark Asylum: (having seen the movie, this one might count as well)

  • The Sociopath: Luther Wells, a Serial Killer who tears people apart with his bare hands and keeps their bodies in his sewer lair.

Big Tits Zombie:

Jolly Roger: Massacre at Cutter's Cove:

  • The Sociopath: "Jolly" Roger Lafarge, a pirate who was killed by his own crew for slaughtering a galleon full of priests and nuns. When he returns from the grave, he kills his crew's descendants so he can get his gold back.

South Bronx Heroes:

  • The Sociopath: Mr. Bennett, a foster father who makes child porn because he thinks his charges have to earn their keep. He's willing to beat them if they refuse, at least once to death.

The Dungeonmaster:

  • The Sociopath: Mestema, an Evil Sorcerer who has spent the centuries kidnapping random people and holding their families hostage to make them fight him because he's bored.

Flesh for the Beast:

  • The Sociopath: John Stoker, a man willing to send as many paranormal investigators to their deaths by succubus to get the amulet to make them his sex slaves.

The Curse of El Charro:

  • The Sociopath: El Charro, a brutal landowner who kills a girl's entire family because she rejected him, then cursed her family that he'd take the next woman of their line who stepped foot on his land as a Sex Slave before being hanged.

Thou Shalt Not Kill... Except:

Android Cop: (checks off shallow affect)

  • The Sociopath: Mayor Jacobs, who poisons an entire section of LA by cutting corners, then covers it up by having it quarantined under pain of death. When his daughter tries to expose his scheme, he's perfectly willing to have her killed.

Creature with the Atom Brain:

  • The Sociopath: Frank Buchanan, a gangster who believes that being deported for his crimes is such a grave insult that he's justified in sticking zombies on everybody involved, and is perfectly willing to kill innocents to ensure that he succeeds.

Frightmare (1983):

  • The Sociopath: Conrad Razkoff, who has spent his life murdering people for minor slights, and continues in death.

The Dead One: (a maybe, but again, treats his sociopathic traits like an afterthought. Then again, can supernatural beings that were never human really be given a diagnosis meant for humans?)

  • The Sociopath: Tezcatlipoca, a god who moulded the Aztec Empire into a brutal society of mass Human Sacrifice, and spends the film killing everybody who stands between him and bringing this society back. He expresses zero care for his people having genocide committed against them, and is only concerned about his own power.

The Amazing Adventures of the Living Corpse: (that last sentence gives me the impression he could be)

  • The Sociopath: Dr. Brainchild, who's perfectly willing to start zombie outbreaks, kidnap children, make them work for him, and throw their lives away to achieve true resurrection. He doesn't even want to do it for any good intentions, simply For Science!

Bloody Mallory: (Lady Valentine sounds like she could be, but what gives me pause is the "near-orgasmic pleasure" bit, which implies sadism)

  • The Sociopath:
    • Abbadon the Dark, a Fallen Angel who rebelled against God solely because he didn't like humans. Even when disguised as a human, he seems to be incapable of even pretending to be nice, being a massive Jerkass who starts his Papacy by railing against homosexuality, abortions and contraceptives.
    • Lady Valentine is a more high-functioning example, being an aristocratic vampire who gains a near-orgasmic pleasure from blood, and is perfectly willing to destroy the world for her own power, but acting diabolically flirty in every scene she's in.

The Killing of Satan: (yeah, he sounds like one, with the whole "for the sake of power" and "no loyalty", just don't see a need to list his atrocities)

  • The Sociopath: The Prince of Magic is willing to torture women into madness and make a teenage girl marry Satan for the sake of power. However, he has no loyalty to Lucifer either, being willing to molest said teenage girl before giving her to his master.

The Seventh Curse: (again, "for power" might imply he is)

  • The Sociopath: Sorcerer Aquala, who serves a Human Sacrifice god for power, condemns women to death for not marrying him, curses outsiders to a slow death when they intervene, and tortures hundreds of children to death to power a vampire beast to serve him.

SS Doomtrooper:

  • The Sociopath: Dr. Ullman, a coldhearted Mad Scientist doing experiments to make Nazi super soldiers. He does not care about his bosses' cause, only that he can win the war and revolutionize genetics at the same time.

Army of Frankensteins:

  • The Sociopath: Captain Robert E. Walton, a coldhearted Confederate general who has no loyalty to the rebellion beyond a desire to win, and is willing to kill his own men to achieve that. He doesn't even blink when killing a child.

Black Butler:

  • The Sociopath: (first one's probably okay, but could use some touchups)
    • Lady Hanae Wakatsuki acts like Shiori's kindly aunt, but is secretly a terrorist mastermind willing to kill anybody who gets in the way of immortality. She also has no problem selling out her co-conspirators to save her own skin, and is pretty convincing at faking remorse.
    • Shinpei Kujo, a Corrupt Corporate Executive who gleefully traffics women to be experimented on for Hanae's experiments, and forces a room fulll of people to kill each other for the antidote for the hell of it. He claims he believes that everybody tearing each other apart for power is the natural state of humanity.

Demon Hunter (2016):

  • The Sociopath: Escharin Falstaff, a centuries-old Evil Sorcerer who believes that God has abandoned the world, and uses that nihilism to convince hurting people to join his cult with the praise of revenge, only to enslave them. When one rebels, he considers it such an affront that he starts killing one person a day to draw her out.

The Afflicted: (the last sentence gives me the impression that she might be one, but again, it's treated like an afterthought)

  • The Sociopath: Maggie, a housewife who beats her husband to death when he tries to leave her. After hiding the body, she begins abusing her children, up to and including pimping the eldest daughter out, all while bursting to violence at utter random. She can pretend to be a kindly mother when others are around, manipulating them so that nobody believes the kids about the abuse.

Lord of Illusions: (saw the movie, and that's a maybe)

  • The Sociopath: Nix. A pure evil sorcerer bent on turning the world into a living cemetary, considers people "just flesh" and also kills all of his own minions for having him "waited like lambs".

Characters.Blood Meridian:

Judge Holden (This is the one example that WASN'T written by the same troper as everything else in this section. I've read the book. While he probably DOES fit the bill, this still just says "does horrible things because he likes it, and oh, he also manipulates people")

  • The Sociopath: While possessing hallmarks of a distinguished gentleman and renaissance individual, The Judge is nevertheless explicitly linked to some of the worst vices in humanity, a lot of which he gladly indulges into and encourages others into digging in. Rape, murder, pedophilia, manipulation, the Judge is certainly a master of all. And unlike the Glanton Gang, who initially does it out of money and later compulsion, the Judge does it simply because he likes it. Even with his diverging perspective, his immorality knows no bounds.

Axeman:

  • The Sociopath: The Axeman of Cutter's Creek, who stalks the woods to torture and kill random people. When his victims ask what he's doing, he dismisses the idea that he even has a reason.

Wicked Little Things:

  • The Sociopath: Edmund Carlton, a mine owner who orders a mine blown with child labourers inside out of greed.

Scary or Die:

  • The Sociopath: Keith, a Serial Killer of undocumented immigrants. Unlike his partner in crime Buck, who at least cares for his girlfriend, Keith has no such redeeming qualities.

Fire with Fire:

  • The Sociopath: David Hagan, a neo-Nazi who robs and kills with impunity, going after the families of anybody who tries to stop him.

Shotgun:

  • The Sociopath: Fletcher Rivington, an Amoral Attorney who will kill anybody to expand his criminal empire, and tortures hookers for fun in his spare time.

The Devil Bat:

  • The Sociopath: Dr. Paul Carruthers, who makes giant bat monsters to kill the corporate executives he sold his makeup formulas to, and their entire families, because he didn't believe he got enough credit despite the fact that they were completely upfront with the fact that they'd be using it for profit.

The Black Room:

  • The Sociopath: Gregor de Berghman, who murders his brother for the barony and proceeds to use his newfound power to kill random women and cover it up.

Bedeviled:

  • The Sociopath: Mr. Bedevil, a demon who's tormented man since the beginning of time and made an app to attack people with because he believes technology has made them grow complacent.

Besides the majority of these just being "bad person does something bad because they're bad and don't feel bad", the problem with these examples is that they rarely follow the specific criteria set for The Sociopath on its page, and when they are followed, it comes off as more of an afterthought that they have any of those characteristics.

Not a sociopath due to a lack of one or more traits

Characters.Saw

Hoffman:

  • The Sociopath: He seriously surpasses his mentor John Kramer on how many lines he's willing to cross. While the former had a moral lesson in mind with his doings and gave his victims a chance to survive, he makes his traps inescapable in the belief that murderers can't redeem themselves, being hypocritical in that statement while claiming so. His partner Amanda Young is a Broken Bird with standards, and was horrifyingly blackmailed by him simply because he didn't like her. He's also willing to murder people whom he worked with for over 20 years just to get away, as well as putting Detective Peter Strahm in an inescapable trap and blaming him for the murder he himself committed in Saw V. He finally crosses the Moral Event Horizon when he murders his mentor's ex-wife with a Reverse Bear Trap in Saw 3D. Luckily, justice was served to him as Lawrence, a secret apprentice of John's from the first movie, put him at his place and locked him in the infamous bathroom, in which he finally died.

Jigsaw/John Kramer:

  • The Sociopath: Other than a sliver of affection for Jill and his apprentices excluding Hoffman, he fits this trope perfectly. He even claims to continue doing what he does, there must be absolutely no emotion involved.

Hoffman doesn't count because he committed his first murder to avenge his sister and referred to her killer as an "animal", so he clearly does have a moral code, he's just a petty douchebag with less of a conscience than his mentor. And John ... well, maybe he's a little trickier, but his Face–Heel Turn came after losing his unborn son, he truly believes that he's doing what's best for his victims, ahem, subjects, orders Larry to avenge Jill if anything happens to her, regrets putting Logan in his trap for mislabeling his x-ray, and puts Mitch through his game because he sold his (Jigsaw's) nephew a defective motorcycle that led to a fatal accident. None of that sounds like "a sliver of affection". Also, there's this letter he wrote for Amanda. Granted, that prop was never used in the movies, but again, that's clearly more than just a sliver of affection. So yeah, not only does he does not fit the trope perfectly, but he also contradicts his "no emotion involved" principle, because almost all of his games were very personal in nature.

Characters.The Poughkeepsie Tapes: (deleted)

Ed Carver/The Water Street Butcher:

  • The Sociopath: A sick and depraved serial murderer with no remorse or mercy... definetly one.

Ed is a sadist, not a sociopath, and his love for theatricality in his tapes plus how he dehumanizes his victims suggests that he's capable of feeling guilt. Though I've read somewhere that sociopath differ from psychopaths in that they can turn their emotions on or off, so ... maybe the troper was onto something? But Ed's motive is clearly way beyond just wanting stimulation. He viciously mutilates his victims, sometimes to confuse the authorities, but also just because what he does gets him off. That he went out of his way to briefly give Cheryl's mother a brief glimmer of hope by showing up at her doorstep just to see the look on her face when she realized who he is, returns to the bodies of his victims to molest them, has a Bondage Is Bad aesthetic, and keeps all those tapes he records to watch over and over again clearly suggests that he's a pure sadist, or at best, a malignant narcissist, having traits of both antisocial personality disorder and sadistic personality disorder and is clearly in love with his own reputation.

Laid to Rest (deleted)

  • The Sociopath: The horrible and deranged ChromeSkull absolutely shows no mercy for his victims, let alone remorse. He also kills people who did him a favour once he no longer needs them.

Again, ChromeSkull is a sadist, not a sociopath. He might not be all that verbally expressive, but his personality is loud and clear. He revels in making his victims as helpless as possible, and also records his murders.

Characters.Hellraiser

  • The Sociopath: Like Frank, Julia has no morals or empathy for others and kills others in the most brutal and sadistic ways without a shred of guilt.

By the second movie, yes, that's pretty much true, but in the first, she feels guilt both for cheating on her husband and for killing men to rejuvenate Frank.

???

Characters.Running Scared 2006:

Dez & Edele

  • The Sociopath: They make home movies of the kids they rape, torture and kill, and then give them star ratings.

I'd rank this one up with Misused or written like a Complete Monster entry, but really, it just seems so vague. Yeah, those are all horrible things and MAYBE the star ratings indicate a need for stimulation, but it just doesn't scream "sociopath" to me.

Sleep Tight:

  • The Sociopath: César. He loves to break down innocent people psychologically and even physically at some point. Just for pure fun.

... honestly, I think he's a case of Ambiguous Disorder. In his opening narration, he shows one trait of sociopathy, specifically a need for stimulation (... I can't be happy. I never have been. Not even when good things happen to me.), and is seemingly incapable of remorse, but otherwise, he seems to just be a straightforward sadist. He's fixated on ensuring everyone around him is as miserable as possible so he can feel good, indulging in petty Kick the Dog moments whenever possible. He has a full grasp on other peoples' feelings (EMPATHY!!!) which he uses to his advantage to hurt people in every way possible short of physical harm.

Characters.The Devil All The Time:

Carl Henderson

Okay, yeah, he probably does qualify as a sociopath, but the problem is that just because a character doesn't have any remorse for doing bad things doesn't automatically make them a 'path by itself. I just added on that he's a skilled liar and manipulator because that much is true as well.

Characters.Star Wars Darth Vader And Servants:

Darth Vader

  • Ax-Crazy: Downplayed. While Vader is very calm, cool, and professional in service to the Empire, there is no doubt under the bluster lies a violent, dangerous, sociopathic man fueled by hatred and grief and willing to massacre dozens of enemies or kill his own subordinates. He has a disturbing penchant for torture as well.

NO. HELL. NO. Vader is, by definition, 100% NOT a sociopath. He's tormented by his guilt for killing Padmé and probably for the atrocities he committed under Order 66. It outright says "fueled by hatred and grief".

Characters.Wolf Creek:

Mick Taylor

Putting aside that this was written by a ban evader, there's not enough context. I will say that Mick probably is a sociopath as well because he given the way he tortures and rapes his victims isn't in line with just getting off on their suffering by itself. He started off having a few moral standards, but as he grew older, he dropped those standards, implying that yes, he fulfills the need for stimulation that's an essential part of what makes a sociopath.

Characters.Condemned Criminal Origins:

Serial Killer X

  • The Sociopath: He's a vicious, remorseless Serial Killer. While he has murdered other serial killers, he has also murdered many innocent people.

Also written by the aforementioned ban evader. I just changed it up a bit to clarify what makes SKX a sociopath: that he kills other serial killers to sate his appetite for murder and feeling their power, without caring who else gets hurt along the way.

Characters.A Nightmare On Elm Street:

Freddy Krueger

  • The Sociopath: For sure. To Freddy, humans are just his playthings.

Too vague, plus Freddy is a sadomasochist (the SADO part is key here)

Edited by Stellarvore on Mar 10th 2021 at 4:07:10 AM

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#2: Mar 10th 2021 at 3:49:27 AM

Opening.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#3: Mar 10th 2021 at 4:57:32 AM

The description for The Sociopath is a mess. I think it needs to be tightened and cleaned for one thing.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
jandn2014 Very Spooky from somewhere in Connecticut Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Hiding
Very Spooky
#4: Mar 10th 2021 at 5:22:38 AM

I’m wondering if this might need to be renamed overall. The word “sociopath” is frequently misused outside of TV Tropes, so I’m thinking that a rename might be the only way to make the trope’s definition clear.

back lol
naturalironist from The Information Superhighway Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#5: Mar 10th 2021 at 8:50:17 AM

I never understood what the difference between The Sociopath and Lack of Empathy was.

Edited by naturalironist on Mar 10th 2021 at 11:50:34 AM

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6: Mar 10th 2021 at 8:58:57 AM

Am I going cross eyed or the wick check has no correct use? Is The Sociopath trope supposed to describe a clinically diagnosed sociopath / someone who has anti-social personality disorder?

[up]Per the description Lack of Empathy is just one of the requirements, though the usage does not bear this out.

I--Vanya--I A bee, a beetle and a moth from Belarus Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
A bee, a beetle and a moth
#7: Mar 10th 2021 at 9:07:35 AM

[up]Put the words right out of my mouth. It's impossible to tell what a problem is if there is no way to tell when there is no problem. How it's possible to tell what is the correct use, if there are no correct use examples?

I have to admit, I had this issue ever since the beginning when the wick check done at its earliest. I feel like the problem could've been avoided if I brought that issue up to Stellarvore from the beginning. Now I feel foolish.

Edited by I--Vanya--I on Mar 10th 2021 at 8:12:39 PM

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#8: Mar 10th 2021 at 9:15:35 AM

Since none of the examples in the wick check are correct, are we sure we even have a trope? One that's, say, more than the constituent five things in the description?

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#9: Mar 10th 2021 at 9:17:46 AM

Exactly. On-and-off-wiki the word "sociopath" can be used to describe anything from your garden-variety asshole to someone legit diagnosed with ASPD. Is there a discernible character type at all? Why not just cut the thing, move applicable examples to Lack of Empathy and the like, and move any descriptions of sociopathy to UsefulNotes.Personality Disorders?

Editing to note:

Found in 7504 articles, excluding discussions.

Since January 1, 2012 this article has brought 47,100 people to the wiki from non-search engine links.

So disambiguate or something. But I am not convinced this is a trope.

Edited by Synchronicity on Mar 10th 2021 at 11:38:50 AM

I--Vanya--I A bee, a beetle and a moth from Belarus Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
A bee, a beetle and a moth
#10: Mar 10th 2021 at 9:19:50 AM

[up]Well, given that it seems like it's Too Rare to Trope, I have to agree. I vote cut and all the other stuff. [tup]

Edited by I--Vanya--I on Mar 10th 2021 at 8:20:22 PM

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WarJay77 Bonnie's Artistic Cousin from The Void (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
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#11: Mar 10th 2021 at 9:33:04 AM

I think I actually did say "hey, correct examples should be there too", but I gave the benefit of the doubt here. There's obviously a problem, just hard to get a sense of scale.

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Stellarvore Since: Apr, 2016
#12: Mar 10th 2021 at 1:17:41 PM

Paging ~Demon Duckof Doom to this discussion.

[up] I might have misunderstood you. I thought what you said was to mention if any of the examples given DO qualify for the trope. That's how I interpreted it, anyway.

Edited by Stellarvore on Mar 10th 2021 at 3:19:55 AM

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#13: Mar 10th 2021 at 1:32:34 PM

Cut due to a combination of a lack of good examples and redundancy with Lack of Empathy.

Edit: I'm fine with the disambiguation page idea.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 10th 2021 at 3:33:30 AM

2 ÷ 0
Stellarvore Since: Apr, 2016
#14: Mar 10th 2021 at 1:59:27 PM

I apologize for my misunderstanding. I'll add some examples for what DOES constitute a sociopath.

GastonRabbit One album, Please (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I've got the brains, you've got the looks. Let's make lots of money.
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#15: Mar 10th 2021 at 2:03:40 PM

[up]What do you mean? We were saying that your wick check only featured bad examples that other people had added (i.e., none of the wicks fit the trope).

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 10th 2021 at 4:04:07 AM

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8BrickMario Since: May, 2013
#16: Mar 10th 2021 at 2:04:37 PM

Yeah, I feel like Lack of Empathy is a broader concept that includes ASPD/sociopaths. Also, like a sexuality or gender identity, a mental disorder is not a trope in and of itself.

GastonRabbit One album, Please (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I've got the brains, you've got the looks. Let's make lots of money.
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#17: Mar 10th 2021 at 2:06:08 PM

[up]I never thought about that before, but I agree.

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Stellarvore Since: Apr, 2016
#18: Mar 10th 2021 at 2:06:33 PM

[up][up][up] Heh. Sorry. I'm not entirely sure what's going on.

Edited by Stellarvore on Mar 10th 2021 at 4:06:43 AM

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#19: Mar 10th 2021 at 2:12:33 PM

OK, let's clear up some stuff:

The point of a wick check is to give an estimate as to how the trope is used. This is done by collecting a certain number of wicks at random and then sorting them into categories. We then assume that the usage in this sample reflects the trope's usage in the wiki at large.

Was the wick collection in the OP random, or were there correct examples you found that were not listed?

Because if those 86 examples were randomly collected, that means 0% of the examples in the wick check are "correct" usage, the trope is not being used correctly at all, and I stand by my original vote to cut. But if not, then that skews the discussion.

like a sexuality or gender identity, a mental disorder is not a trope in and of itself

This is true. However, if there is a common way sociopathy is presented even if it's inaccurate (ala Split Personality), that could be a trope.

Edited by Synchronicity on Mar 10th 2021 at 4:16:38 AM

ClancyGardener life is a state of mind from 53 miles west of Venus Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
#20: Mar 10th 2021 at 2:15:10 PM

I think it would be better to leave The Sociopath as a trope, but to cut all examples that don't fit the criteria. I think it is a valid trope idea, as long as examples fit the proper criteria — at the very least, if The Sociopath is cut then tropes like Narcissist and The Paranoiac should be, too.

Trimming the hedges, one trope at a time.
Stellarvore Since: Apr, 2016
#21: Mar 10th 2021 at 2:17:22 PM

I was only picking out the incorrect examples that I remember seeing, or the ones that are too vague but seem to be a "maybe". I DID run across some good examples, like the one written for Ruth Chandler (though it's unclear to me if she's a sociopath or a sadist) before it was changed.

[up] And this. I really don't think it should be cut. You don't have to be on the ASPD spectrum to lack empathy. It's more the other way around. So I wouldn't consider it redundant like others seem to be thinking.

Edited by Stellarvore on Mar 10th 2021 at 4:20:15 AM

WarJay77 Bonnie's Artistic Cousin from The Void (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Bonnie's Artistic Cousin
#22: Mar 10th 2021 at 2:26:44 PM

So it seems like the check was a bit skewed then. Should we do a second check to be safe? Or is it fine?

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Stellarvore Since: Apr, 2016
#23: Mar 10th 2021 at 2:29:14 PM

I can do a second check. Though would it be possible to just keep the check as is but add some proper examples?

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#24: Mar 10th 2021 at 2:29:51 PM

I think a second check is best. We need a random check to see what misuse and correct use are.

Having such an insane tilt to negative means it's hard to get an actual understanding.

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Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#25: Mar 10th 2021 at 2:30:59 PM

You don't have to be on the ASPD spectrum to lack empathy. It's more the other way around. So I wouldn't consider it redundant like others seem to be thinking.

If we are just troping "a character who fits the ASPD checklist" then I don't think that's a trope. (something something Bi The Way and Hollywood Personality Disorders) If we are troping a specific character archetype or trait that shows up in fiction that is a trope. Note that Narcissist and The Paranoiac are both broader than their respective personality disorders.

You see the issue, right? This has 7000 wicks. Any trope with 7000 wicks will have 86 misused examples because that's how the wiki is. But because you're only showing us misused examples without letting us know how the misuse looks statistically, we don't really know how bad the problem is, or if any proposed solutions are the correct ones. So I support a second check, although it's more work.

Edited by Synchronicity on Mar 10th 2021 at 4:32:06 AM


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