Opening.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanThe description for The Sociopath is a mess. I think it needs to be tightened and cleaned for one thing.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."I’m wondering if this might need to be renamed overall. The word “sociopath” is frequently misused outside of TV Tropes, so I’m thinking that a rename might be the only way to make the trope’s definition clear.
back lolI never understood what the difference between The Sociopath and Lack of Empathy was.
Edited by naturalironist on Mar 10th 2021 at 11:50:34 AM
"It's just a show; I should really just relax"Am I going cross eyed or the wick check has no correct use? Is The Sociopath trope supposed to describe a clinically diagnosed sociopath / someone who has anti-social personality disorder?
Per the description Lack of Empathy is just one of the requirements, though the usage does not bear this out.
Put the words right out of my mouth. It's impossible to tell what a problem is if there is no way to tell when there is no problem. How it's possible to tell what is the correct use, if there are no correct use examples?
I have to admit, I had this issue ever since the beginning when the wick check done at its earliest. I feel like the problem could've been avoided if I brought that issue up to Stellarvore from the beginning. Now I feel foolish.
Edited by I--Vanya--I on Mar 10th 2021 at 8:12:39 PM
Vi: Well, it's not like we're getting attacked by a giant wasp spider guardian! | Leif: Never combine those words ever again.Since none of the examples in the wick check are correct, are we sure we even have a trope? One that's, say, more than the constituent five things in the description?
Exactly. On-and-off-wiki the word "sociopath" can be used to describe anything from your garden-variety asshole to someone legit diagnosed with ASPD. Is there a discernible character type at all? Why not just cut the thing, move applicable examples to Lack of Empathy and the like, and move any descriptions of sociopathy to UsefulNotes.Personality Disorders?
Editing to note:
So disambiguate or something. But I am not convinced this is a trope.
Edited by Synchronicity on Mar 10th 2021 at 11:38:50 AM
Well, given that it seems like it's Too Rare to Trope, I have to agree. I vote cut and all the other stuff.
Edited by I--Vanya--I on Mar 10th 2021 at 8:20:22 PM
Vi: Well, it's not like we're getting attacked by a giant wasp spider guardian! | Leif: Never combine those words ever again.I think I actually did say "hey, correct examples should be there too", but I gave the benefit of the doubt here. There's obviously a problem, just hard to get a sense of scale.
Current Project: The TeamPaging ~Demon Duckof Doom to this discussion.
I might have misunderstood you. I thought what you said was to mention if any of the examples given DO qualify for the trope. That's how I interpreted it, anyway.
Edited by Stellarvore on Mar 10th 2021 at 3:19:55 AM
Cut due to a combination of a lack of good examples and redundancy with Lack of Empathy.
Edit: I'm fine with the disambiguation page idea.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 10th 2021 at 3:33:30 AM
2 ÷ 0I apologize for my misunderstanding. I'll add some examples for what DOES constitute a sociopath.
What do you mean? We were saying that your wick check only featured bad examples that other people had added (i.e., none of the wicks fit the trope).
Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 10th 2021 at 4:04:07 AM
2 ÷ 0Yeah, I feel like Lack of Empathy is a broader concept that includes ASPD/sociopaths. Also, like a sexuality or gender identity, a mental disorder is not a trope in and of itself.
I never thought about that before, but I agree.
2 ÷ 0Heh. Sorry. I'm not entirely sure what's going on.
Edited by Stellarvore on Mar 10th 2021 at 4:06:43 AM
OK, let's clear up some stuff:
The point of a wick check is to give an estimate as to how the trope is used. This is done by collecting a certain number of wicks at random and then sorting them into categories. We then assume that the usage in this sample reflects the trope's usage in the wiki at large.
Was the wick collection in the OP random, or were there correct examples you found that were not listed?
Because if those 86 examples were randomly collected, that means 0% of the examples in the wick check are "correct" usage, the trope is not being used correctly at all, and I stand by my original vote to cut. But if not, then that skews the discussion.
This is true. However, if there is a common way sociopathy is presented even if it's inaccurate (ala Split Personality), that could be a trope.
Edited by Synchronicity on Mar 10th 2021 at 4:16:38 AM
I think it would be better to leave The Sociopath as a trope, but to cut all examples that don't fit the criteria. I think it is a valid trope idea, as long as examples fit the proper criteria — at the very least, if The Sociopath is cut then tropes like Narcissist and The Paranoiac should be, too.
Trimming the hedges, one trope at a time.I was only picking out the incorrect examples that I remember seeing, or the ones that are too vague but seem to be a "maybe". I DID run across some good examples, like the one written for Ruth Chandler (though it's unclear to me if she's a sociopath or a sadist) before it was changed.
And this. I really don't think it should be cut. You don't have to be on the ASPD spectrum to lack empathy. It's more the other way around. So I wouldn't consider it redundant like others seem to be thinking.
Edited by Stellarvore on Mar 10th 2021 at 4:20:15 AM
So it seems like the check was a bit skewed then. Should we do a second check to be safe? Or is it fine?
Current Project: The TeamI can do a second check. Though would it be possible to just keep the check as is but add some proper examples?
I think a second check is best. We need a random check to see what misuse and correct use are.
Having such an insane tilt to negative means it's hard to get an actual understanding.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."If we are just troping "a character who fits the ASPD checklist" then I don't think that's a trope. (something something Bi The Way and Hollywood Personality Disorders) If we are troping a specific character archetype or trait that shows up in fiction that is a trope. Note that Narcissist and The Paranoiac are both broader than their respective personality disorders.
You see the issue, right? This has 7000 wicks. Any trope with 7000 wicks will have 86 misused examples because that's how the wiki is. But because you're only showing us misused examples without letting us know how the misuse looks statistically, we don't really know how bad the problem is, or if any proposed solutions are the correct ones. So I support a second check, although it's more work.
Edited by Synchronicity on Mar 10th 2021 at 4:32:06 AM
So, I just got the 86 wick checks I need for The Sociopath to be considered for a repair. Hopefully the third time's a charm? Over in The Sociopath cleanup thread, we've discussed settling on a definition that would prevent any further misuses of the trope.
Basically, I've seen it misused a lot for characters that just so happen to do horrible things that they don't show or feel any regret for, often focusing more on their atrocities than anything that could truly diagnose a character as a sociopath and pairing the diagnosis with Complete Monster candidates, even if the character shows other traits that wouldn't befit a sociopath in the slightest and would better fit, say, a Sadist, as per the description on the trope page. Other examples are just completely shoehorned in and read way too much into a character (ESPECIALLY from children's works), and some are just too vague. Anyway, I now present my case.
Shoehorned examples
From Characters.Diary Of A Wimpy Kid:
I haven't read those books, but someone else argued that that's reading too deep into a children's book, and I'm inclined to agree. Besides that, he has Jerk with a Heart of Gold and Pet the Dog on his sheet. Here's another shoehorned example that was removed over a year ago, D.W. from Arthur:
Mm. Yeah. No. Again, that's reading WAY too much into a kid's show, and plus in at least one episode, she feels bad after making Arthur melt by whispering something cruel in his ear. Granted, that was in a dream, but I figure that's enough to show she's capable of acknowledging her wrongdoings, especially since she's so horrified when she wakes up.
Misused or written like a Complete Monster entry:
Faust: Love of the Damned (pothole was changed to Sadist by another troper):
The Conjuring: (deleted)
Nightbreed: (Decker was edited and Eigermann removed)
Where the Dead Go to Die: (yes, yes, I know; anyway, deleted because it's just another "bad person does bad things" example)
The Girl Next Door: (changed back to an earlier version that was fine as is, though I wonder if Ruth's sadism disqualifies her)
Goth (2003): (haven't done anything with it)
Mandy (2018) (deleted; Jeremiah is a narcissist and therefore not a sociopath as per the main description of the latter)
Gutterballs (left it alone for now)
Satan's Little Helper (deleted)
Tales of Halloween (deleted)
Tetsuo: The Iron Man (deleted)
Scalps
American Justice:
Perfect Assassins:
Teenagers from Outer Space:
Trancers:
Wizards of the Demon Sword:
He Knows You're Alone:
100 Bloody Acres:
Cure:
22 Bullets:
Mulan: Rise of a Warrior:
The Black Cobra:
The Colony (2016):
Black Sunday:
Blood of Beasts:
Zombie Cop: (maybe a sociopath, given that second sentence, but still treats it like an afterthought)
The Brain (1988):
Werewolves on Wheels:
The Tooth Fairy (2006):
Alien Outlaw:
Jack-O:
Hack-O-Lantern:
The Exterminators of the Year 3000:
Escape 2000:
The Black Belly of the Tarantula:
The Mad Monster:
The Vampire Bat:
All-Star Superman:
Time After Time:
Frontier(s): (saw it a long time ago and don't remember it well myself, but this one's also a maybe)
Dead Heat:
The Web:
Dark Asylum: (having seen the movie, this one might count as well)
Big Tits Zombie:
Jolly Roger: Massacre at Cutter's Cove:
South Bronx Heroes:
The Dungeonmaster:
Flesh for the Beast:
The Curse of El Charro:
Thou Shalt Not Kill... Except:
Android Cop: (checks off shallow affect)
Creature with the Atom Brain:
Frightmare (1983):
The Dead One: (a maybe, but again, treats his sociopathic traits like an afterthought. Then again, can supernatural beings that were never human really be given a diagnosis meant for humans?)
The Amazing Adventures of the Living Corpse: (that last sentence gives me the impression he could be)
Bloody Mallory: (Lady Valentine sounds like she could be, but what gives me pause is the "near-orgasmic pleasure" bit, which implies sadism)
The Killing of Satan: (yeah, he sounds like one, with the whole "for the sake of power" and "no loyalty", just don't see a need to list his atrocities)
The Seventh Curse: (again, "for power" might imply he is)
SS Doomtrooper:
Army of Frankensteins:
Black Butler:
Demon Hunter (2016):
The Afflicted: (the last sentence gives me the impression that she might be one, but again, it's treated like an afterthought)
Lord of Illusions: (saw the movie, and that's a maybe)
Characters.Blood Meridian:
Judge Holden (This is the one example that WASN'T written by the same troper as everything else in this section. I've read the book. While he probably DOES fit the bill, this still just says "does horrible things because he likes it, and oh, he also manipulates people")
Axeman:
Wicked Little Things:
Scary or Die:
Fire with Fire:
Shotgun:
The Devil Bat:
The Black Room:
Bedeviled:
Besides the majority of these just being "bad person does something bad because they're bad and don't feel bad", the problem with these examples is that they rarely follow the specific criteria set for The Sociopath on its page, and when they are followed, it comes off as more of an afterthought that they have any of those characteristics.
Not a sociopath due to a lack of one or more traits
Characters.Saw
Hoffman:
Jigsaw/John Kramer:
Hoffman doesn't count because he committed his first murder to avenge his sister and referred to her killer as an "animal", so he clearly does have a moral code, he's just a petty douchebag with less of a conscience than his mentor. And John ... well, maybe he's a little trickier, but his Face–Heel Turn came after losing his unborn son, he truly believes that he's doing what's best for his victims, ahem, subjects, orders Larry to avenge Jill if anything happens to her, regrets putting Logan in his trap for mislabeling his x-ray, and puts Mitch through his game because he sold his (Jigsaw's) nephew a defective motorcycle that led to a fatal accident. None of that sounds like "a sliver of affection". Also, there's this letter he wrote for Amanda. Granted, that prop was never used in the movies, but again, that's clearly more than just a sliver of affection. So yeah, not only does he does not fit the trope perfectly, but he also contradicts his "no emotion involved" principle, because almost all of his games were very personal in nature.
Characters.The Poughkeepsie Tapes: (deleted)
Ed Carver/The Water Street Butcher:
Ed is a sadist, not a sociopath, and his love for theatricality in his tapes plus how he dehumanizes his victims suggests that he's capable of feeling guilt. Though I've read somewhere that sociopath differ from psychopaths in that they can turn their emotions on or off, so ... maybe the troper was onto something? But Ed's motive is clearly way beyond just wanting stimulation. He viciously mutilates his victims, sometimes to confuse the authorities, but also just because what he does gets him off. That he went out of his way to briefly give Cheryl's mother a brief glimmer of hope by showing up at her doorstep just to see the look on her face when she realized who he is, returns to the bodies of his victims to molest them, has a Bondage Is Bad aesthetic, and keeps all those tapes he records to watch over and over again clearly suggests that he's a pure sadist, or at best, a malignant narcissist, having traits of both antisocial personality disorder and sadistic personality disorder and is clearly in love with his own reputation.
Laid to Rest (deleted)
Again, ChromeSkull is a sadist, not a sociopath. He might not be all that verbally expressive, but his personality is loud and clear. He revels in making his victims as helpless as possible, and also records his murders.
Characters.Hellraiser
By the second movie, yes, that's pretty much true, but in the first, she feels guilt both for cheating on her husband and for killing men to rejuvenate Frank.
???
Characters.Running Scared 2006:
Dez & Edele
I'd rank this one up with Misused or written like a Complete Monster entry, but really, it just seems so vague. Yeah, those are all horrible things and MAYBE the star ratings indicate a need for stimulation, but it just doesn't scream "sociopath" to me.
Sleep Tight:
... honestly, I think he's a case of Ambiguous Disorder. In his opening narration, he shows one trait of sociopathy, specifically a need for stimulation (... I can't be happy. I never have been. Not even when good things happen to me.), and is seemingly incapable of remorse, but otherwise, he seems to just be a straightforward sadist. He's fixated on ensuring everyone around him is as miserable as possible so he can feel good, indulging in petty Kick the Dog moments whenever possible. He has a full grasp on other peoples' feelings (EMPATHY!!!) which he uses to his advantage to hurt people in every way possible short of physical harm.
Characters.The Devil All The Time:
Carl Henderson
Okay, yeah, he probably does qualify as a sociopath, but the problem is that just because a character doesn't have any remorse for doing bad things doesn't automatically make them a 'path by itself. I just added on that he's a skilled liar and manipulator because that much is true as well.
Characters.Star Wars Darth Vader And Servants:
Darth Vader
NO. HELL. NO. Vader is, by definition, 100% NOT a sociopath. He's tormented by his guilt for killing Padmé and probably for the atrocities he committed under Order 66. It outright says "fueled by hatred and grief".
Characters.Wolf Creek:
Mick Taylor
Putting aside that this was written by a ban evader, there's not enough context. I will say that Mick probably is a sociopath as well because he given the way he tortures and rapes his victims isn't in line with just getting off on their suffering by itself. He started off having a few moral standards, but as he grew older, he dropped those standards, implying that yes, he fulfills the need for stimulation that's an essential part of what makes a sociopath.
Characters.Condemned Criminal Origins:
Serial Killer X
Also written by the aforementioned ban evader. I just changed it up a bit to clarify what makes SKX a sociopath: that he kills other serial killers to sate his appetite for murder and feeling their power, without caring who else gets hurt along the way.
Characters.A Nightmare On Elm Street:
Freddy Krueger
Too vague, plus Freddy is a sadomasochist (the SADO part is key here)
Edited by Stellarvore on Mar 10th 2021 at 4:07:10 AM