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Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#3501: Dec 13th 2021 at 8:53:03 AM

They consulted Wakanda

That’s almost like having a consensus

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#3502: Dec 13th 2021 at 9:06:18 AM

I'm not sure if there was any way to prepare for people to be brought back to life.

ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#3503: Dec 13th 2021 at 9:24:47 AM

[up]I mean, they were under no time pressure at all, as their plan was time travel and alt-Thanos wasn't a problem yet. There's no particular reason not to warn governments, if only to let them start stockpiling food and identifying temporary shelters. You probably can't get to perfect, but you can get a lot better than 'no warning whatsoever.'

More generally, FATWS suffers terribly from the MCU's general unwillingness to address whatever was actually going on in the Blip. This maybe needs to shift forums, but I find the whole story deeply confusing, on how good it was supposed to be, given the Flagsmashers appear to have spent that period working for the Power Broker in Madripor. That doesn't exactly strike me as indicative of a lost utopia...though I guess maybe they met up with her after the blip was over? The timeline here is all out of whack.

But more generally, the problem is that they really don't want to explain how things were during the blip and so we don't actually know what's being fought for. We get a lot of fairly confusing and juvenile rhetoric, but we have no idea of the stakes, except the last vote on expelling refugees (I want to say 20 million? Which is simultaneously way too many for the way it's being discussed and way too few to address the problem of ~4 billion people suddenly appearing). The assumption seems to be that it was going to pass, but I don't actually see much evidence of that...

Anyway, yeah, I dislike Wandavision's ending, but it at least had a story it wanted to tell and mostly told. I really dislike the 'power + grief + eventually stopping torturing people means you're fine,' as a concluding message, but it was better than FATWS's 'be better,' as a concluding message.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#3504: Dec 13th 2021 at 12:31:46 PM

Leaping into action and doing what they consider to be the right thing without any regard to whether anyone else agrees to them, or any overarching input from official authority is both the greatest pro and greatest con of traditional superheroing.

For all intents and purposes, Captain America won the Civil War. This sort of thing is literally what that conflict was about. This is what Cap's victory means. The Avengers are going to bring everyone back to life on their schedule, without telling a soul that they're doing this, and the rest of the world can fucking deal with it.

If the world doesn't want the Avengers to unilaterally make massive decisions with sweeping global consequences, then I guess the world should have tried harder to make them abide by the Accords.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 13th 2021 at 12:33:32 PM

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Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#3505: Dec 13th 2021 at 12:38:33 PM

Yeah, while I don't really see FATWS as that problematic, what the MCU was going for in terms of the Accords was kinda weird.

I mean I guess the overall message was that sometimes you have to question authority and do the right thing, but doing that by making the heroes piss on something that (more or less) all Nations of the World signed, basically declaring that international law and sovereign borders are worthless was.....yeah, questionable, to say the least.

Guess the Avengers are a bunch of Neocons after all tongue

Edited by Forenperser on Dec 13th 2021 at 9:38:42 PM

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ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#3506: Dec 13th 2021 at 12:39:54 PM

[up][up]Yes, that's what the narrative tells us. Then to avoid the horrific consequences of that which would occur in reality of their decision to act unilaterally (massive starvation and/or massive warfare which prevented starvation by killing off so much of the population) they've skipped over it entirely and just said 'no everything's back to MCU standard,' which is...a choice.

In the long run, I do wonder if the blip and their unwillingness to address what actually happened during it and immediately after everyone came back on any level beyond the purely emotional is going to be a poison pill for the MCU going forward.

ETA: [up]Well, maybe this belongs in the MCU general thread, but yeah, it's very awkward narratively and they only make it work at all by stacking the deck. The problem is, for the result they want: Superheroes exist and aren't simply government employees, they had to stack the deck. Hence the total disappearance of Nigeria from a story kicked off by a raid in a major Nigerian city and open combat in its streets.

Partly it's to introduce Black Panther, but mostly it's because the Wakandan deaths are fairly clearly Rumlow's fault. The decision to have a firefight in a major city without telling anyone (notice they contact fire and rescue after Rumlow's suicide bomb goes off and no Nigerian government officials are involved at all) is a lot harder to defend so we ignore it.

Edited by ECD on Dec 13th 2021 at 12:43:34 PM

Watchtower Since: Jul, 2010
#3507: Dec 13th 2021 at 12:47:56 PM

Rather it's like the current and forever pandemic and employee concessions like work at home or stronger social safety nets were always possible and it took dire circumstances for those in power to begrudgingly allow them

And just like TFATWS as soon as it looks like things are back to normal they tried to roll it all back

....Goddammit I hate how not wrong this is.

dmcreif Vault Dweller from Vault 33 (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Vault Dweller
#3508: Dec 13th 2021 at 1:36:48 PM

Congrats to Elizabeth Olsen for getting a Golden Globes nomination for Best Actress in a Limited Series, and Paul Bettany for Best Actor in a Limited Series.

Okey Dokey!
OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#3509: Dec 13th 2021 at 1:53:54 PM

As Captain America also points out, agendas change, and plenty of Politicians do not have peoples best interests at heart as the Pandemic has made clear.

Logistically we have always had enough food and supplies to feed people, but those in power always found it easier(and cheaper) to just throw it all away than feed people. Whether they brought people back now or then would not have changed this systemic issue.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Dec 13th 2021 at 1:54:26 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#3510: Dec 13th 2021 at 2:00:13 PM

[up] That doesn't mean that Authority should be disregarded completely though, does it?

Especially when, like I said, the entire damn UN is in agreement about something.

EDIT: Oh, sorry, you spoke about the Blip, not the Accords.

Edited by Forenperser on Dec 13th 2021 at 11:06:55 AM

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Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#3511: Dec 13th 2021 at 2:00:49 PM

The thing is, I don't know how much telling the various governments would have really helped?

Like, the unsnap was a huge gamble as to whether it would work. The way the world currently is, there's not a whole lot the governments would realistically be able to do and then you also lead to getting the hopes up of hundreds of thousands of people necessary for any kind of preparations they would be doing.

Not to mention the fact that, well, the galaxy's a big place now. The Avengers as of Endgame are borderline a cosmic team. Even if you got Earth ready, that's a drop in the bucket.

Plus, "no rush" isn't exactly true. They're sitting on these Infinity Stones that are A: cosmically powerful and B: have been sought after by all sorts of individuals, not just Thanos. Every day passed is a day where something can happen to them. I do think they could've, say, waited for Captain Marvel to come back but given how these are basically an Artifact of Doom they're sitting on, I can't blame them for not waiting for limited concrete gain.

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ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#3512: Dec 13th 2021 at 2:08:28 PM

[up]Sorry, to be clear, I was referring to the period after they'd figured out time travel, but before they went back.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#3513: Dec 13th 2021 at 2:08:34 PM

The question isn't whether the various world governments could have helped with the Snapback. The question is whether the various world governments should have been prepared for the Snapback ahead of time.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Dec 13th 2021 at 2:08:48 AM

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OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#3514: Dec 13th 2021 at 2:15:40 PM

And than they would never have agreed to bring back half the worlds population. It’s cheaper and easier to just leave them all dead.

[up]x3 The Accords in the first place already tries to spin and blame the Avengers for things they werent responsible for, or was specifically Tony, the one who being a rich billionaire would be able to get away with it regardless, and was showing clear signs of Authoritarian sliding. With the world as it is, this is a pretty easy way to slide into an authoritarian state across the world, and SHIELD was doing the exact same thing with giant guns to aim at people before crimes were even committed not even that long ago, and they did it all while Hydra had to do little than instigate fear construction and othering.

There was no clear cut answer, but if I believe the UN would even concern themselves with reviving people in the end? No I don’t, and that they would have had to do it on their own no matter what.

Would I have preferred them going to the UN and trying to get permission only to be denied ever reviving people? I wouldn’t mind it honestly.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Dec 13th 2021 at 2:17:10 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#3515: Dec 13th 2021 at 2:17:11 PM

Yeah, no one knows its coming, which should have resulted in mass panic (and did, we saw it in Wandavision!) and mass casualties (which we just sort of pretend didn't happen). That couldn't be fully avoided, but with some warning it could have been significantly less bad.

I mean, if nothing else, the non-snapped would have had time to organize some sort of plan for keeping whatever good had come from the last few years and tried to come up with some plans for reintegrating the returned (though the notion that it's the people who've been dead for five years who are going to have the money and power to call all the shots is one of the stupider positions FATWS takes. Reversing that would have neatly avoided the 'Thanos was right' problem and far better fit the refugee analogy they wanted). Or, putting aside politics and law, the big problems are going to be infrastructure, supplies and logistics.

There's not a great way to set things up for a sudden doubling of the population, but a lot of things could be done, but won't if there's no warning. Now maybe (especially in the MCU, where every government is somewhere on the incompetent->malicious scale) they wouldn't, but at least that wouldn't be on our heroes.

ETA: [up]I'm sorry, just to be clear, you believe the position of the governments would be 'no just leave our family members dead?' Government people are people too!

ETA 2: [down]Let's not let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

Edited by ECD on Dec 13th 2021 at 2:20:12 AM

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#3516: Dec 13th 2021 at 2:18:28 PM

Actually come to think about it

It’s not just Earth

It’s every planet in the entire universe

That’s a ridiculous logistical hurdle

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Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#3517: Dec 13th 2021 at 2:20:07 PM

The thing is that it's a huge risk. Like, say you tell the governments. Then what? Not only is it further jeopardizing the unsnappening happening (since it's taking time and increasing the number of people that have an idea that they have a potential means to unsnap them), it's not like they should even try to prepare.

Can you imagine an already stretched government, upon hearing about this possibility, straining itself further and giving hope to hundreds of thousands of people in an attempt to prepare for this and it... doesn't happen? That's so much worse than if you did nothing at all.

And as I mentioned, the galaxy is a big place. The Avengers are now a cosmic team. Earth is a drop in a bucket here in terms of this kind of preparation. What would this really accomplish?

[down]A: No. B: ... so?

Edited by Larkmarn on Dec 13th 2021 at 5:22:31 AM

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ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#3518: Dec 13th 2021 at 2:21:14 PM

[up] You do get how incredibly patronizing that is to the elected governments of the people of earth, right?

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#3519: Dec 13th 2021 at 2:23:49 PM

Speaking of that thing I said, I’d love it if cosmic stuff in future movies have the Avengers famous in space for defeating Thanos and bringing back the snapped

But since most of the Avengers spent almost no time out in space it’s a real game of telephone what aliens think the Avengers even are

Imagine a space mural of the Avengers that’s almost but not quite entirely off the mark

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Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#3520: Dec 13th 2021 at 3:43:29 PM

[up] They probably all think it was Captain Marvel.

Bocaj Funny but not helpful from Here or thereabouts (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny but not helpful
#3521: Dec 13th 2021 at 3:53:14 PM

Captain Marvel, Captain Amerivel, armor Marvel, green Marvel, and feared and hated space pirate Nebula

Forever liveblogging the Avengers
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#3522: Dec 13th 2021 at 3:55:44 PM

I'm just imagining the Avengers being known in alien plants as "Captain Marvel & friends". Their documentaries about the unsnapping are just about how Captain Marvel single-handedly stopped Thanos and some other guys helped, too.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
ECD Since: Nov, 2021
#3523: Dec 13th 2021 at 4:43:58 PM

[up]See, now I want to see the Skrull/Kree/other musical 'Marvel' starring Captain Marvel and some other people.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#3524: Dec 13th 2021 at 5:00:40 PM

If it would’ve been too much hassle to examine how the world’s governments could’ve prepared for the reverse Snap, I would’ve at least rewritten the Avengers’ actions to be that they were preparing a plan but Thanos’s sudden return forced them to bring back everyone ASAP before he could screw up their chances.

God_of_Awesome Since: Jan, 2001
#3525: Dec 14th 2021 at 7:41:02 AM

It would be Captain Marvel, Captain Earth (He has power armor and a shield. One projects from the other, though it's not entirely clear which), Thor of Asgard and Hulk of Sakaar that helped save the universe from Thanos.


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