Duplicate Trope: The Reptilians

Since there seems to be a consensus for option 2, I've put up a Sandbox Reptilian Conspiracy page so we can be working on it while details like the name are discussed. [EDIT: if we do end up going with option 1, we can just use it for the re-written page.]

Edited by MugaSofer on Nov 20th 2020 at 6:10:18 PM

I'm fine with renaming this to Reptilian Conspiracy and moving examples that don't have to do with the conspiracy theory.

You can't always get what you want.

I agree with making Reptilian Conspiracy a subtrope of Lizard Folk.

It does not matter who I am. What matters is, who will you become? - motto of Omsk Bird

Adding a reference to the Conspiracy Theorist trope would also help (I'm surprised it isn't already on there).

Also, the retooled trope should probably be In-Universe Examples Only, considering there was a Wiki Talk thread earlier this year regarding whether it's a good idea to even have the UsefulNotes.Conspiracy Theories pages (only the COVID-19 subpage ended up being cut and added to the Permanent Red Link Club).

Edited by GastonRabbit on Nov 19th 2020 at 5:28:51 AM

You can't always get what you want.

I don't think it fits any of the categories where No Real Life Examples, Please! applies? COVID-19 conspiracy theories fall under the "controversial" category, so I can see why it would apply there, but I don't think lizard people not existing is particularly controversial.

If the concern is spreading conspiracy theories - I think clear explanation, like the existing section on video compression artifacts, probably actively helps push people away from conspiracy theories. Not that many people who are actively considering "what if lizard people exist?" are coming here in the first place, since they're a tiny fringe.

Edited by MugaSofer on Nov 20th 2020 at 8:09:04 PM

If we don't make it IUEO, then it would belong under Impossible in Real Life.

I'm back!

It does not matter who I am. What matters is, who will you become? - motto of Omsk Bird

The trope frequently focuses on Conspiracy Theorist characters who believe in lizard people, so it's not Impossible in Real Life IMO.

There are also a lot of examples that blur the lines - prominent works that have been written by IRL conspiracy theorists and feature such things as a result of the author believing in them, such as Batman Odyssey, Ancient Aliens, and B.o.B's single "Flatline". Not to mention that awareness of the IRL conspiracy theory is an expected part of the context a lot of works are relying on when they use the trope - there's a reason it frequently goes alongside tropes like Conspiracy Theorist and Conspiracy Kitchen Sink.

It's been over three days and there seems to be a consensus in favour of merging, but I suppose we should probably have a crowner to be sure. Created one here, hollering for the hook.

Crowner attached per request.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Added options for IUEO and renaming (both for if it isn't merged with Lizard Folk). Didn't add NRLEP since the only post that brought up making it NRLEP (I previously said IUEO, not NRLEP) was against it.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Nov 21st 2020 at 3:53:32 AM

You can't always get what you want.

Ah, OK, I had intended to do a seperate crowner for page content to avoid confusion but I guess this works.

In-Universe Examples Only is for when

... the trope is only to be listed when the reactions are from the characters or narration, not the viewers. Even if they can be Audience Reactions, the tropes here are only to be noted when the characters and show have the reaction.

Are you sure you didn't mean No Real Life Examples, Please!, since this isn't a reaction trope? I'm not sure how we would go about applying IUEO to this page.

Edited by MugaSofer on Nov 21st 2020 at 11:42:18 AM

I was referring to the first line of the IUEO page:

This sentence on the In-Universe page (slightly above the list of Audience Reactions that have separate in-universe counterparts), which lists synonyms of in-universe, is relevant here:

If we had to go with the character reaction aspect, the character reaction would be that characters in-universe believe and/or are trying to spread the conspiracy theory.

Edit: Went ahead and added NRLEP per what you said. The category would probably be NoRealLife.Too Controversial (this is where Conspiracy Theorist is), not NoRealLife.Impossible In Real Life (since the conspiracy theory itself exists and has proponents; it just happens to be wrong).

Edited by GastonRabbit on Nov 21st 2020 at 7:12:53 AM

You can't always get what you want.

Bumping

TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall

Current crowner status:

• Merge with Lizard Folk, create new trope for the conspiracy theory.
  (yeas:11 nays:2) 5.50 : 1
• Make a Sub-Trope of Lizard Folk (if merging with Lizard Folk and creating a new trope, this would apply to the new page)
  (yeas:8 nays:1) 8.00 : 1
• Make In-Universe Examples Only (if merging with Lizard Folk and creating a new trope, this would apply to the new page)
  (yeas:5 nays:3) 1.67 : 1

---

All other options in the negatives.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Can we call it in favour of "Merge with Lizard Folk, create new trope for the conspiracy theory" and "Make the new page a Sub-Trope of Lizard Folk", and only continue the crowner regarding the IUEO/NRLEP question? Since they're not connected questions.

EDIT: for reference: "Merge" has 15 yesses, "Sub-Trope" has 12, both have only 2 no votes. It's been up over a week.

Edited by MugaSofer on Dec 2nd 2020 at 4:27:33 PM

If we're going to merge the pages, I think we should make The Reptilians a disambiguation instead of a redirect.

Since there was previously some confusion regarding what IUEO means in this case (albeit less than with the Acceptable Targets thread), particularly compared with NRLEP, I previously said that the in-universe reaction comes from characters believing and/or spreading the conspiracy theory.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 2nd 2020 at 5:25:31 AM

You can't always get what you want.

So, does that mean this new subtrope will purely be about characters discussing the actual, IRL conspiracy theory, and exclude examples that are just inspired by it (such as V)?

Edited by Primis on Dec 2nd 2020 at 11:04:09 AM

That wouldn't really make sense, and would be hugely and unnecessarily limiting for the trope.

Now that you mention it, those wouldn't be excluded. I was extremely tired when I wrote my previous post, but what I was saying (or at least trying to say) earlier in the thread (before my previous post) is that the trope has to be present in a work (regardless of whether it's true or false in the work), as opposed to listing examples of real life proponents of it.

I think a post I made earlier in the thread pointing out that "in-work" is listed as synonymous with "in-universe" on the In-Universe page was better thought out than my previous post (and probably this one as well).

Edit: Regarding discussed examples vs. the trope happening in the work, I suppose such a setup would be similar to how Jumping the Shark's IUEO status is set up in a way that allows discussions of the term in addition to examples of a Show Within a Show jumping the shark. Probably not the best comparison since that used to be an Audience Reaction before it was made IUEO due to complaining, and because it's more reaction-oriented than a trope about a conspiracy theory, but I currently can't think of any other IUEO tropes that separate in-universe discussion from in-universe occurrences.

Another edit: I should probably add that if the TLP draft for the new trope has already been started, I didn't know about it; a combination of TLP regulars and posters in this thread other than myself would probably be better at handling the draft's discussion.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 3rd 2020 at 3:58:40 AM

You can't always get what you want.

OK, I guess we can start shifting non-duplicate examples from The Reptilians to Lizard Folk and removing any duplicates, and once that's done then we can redirect it.

Added In-Universe Examples Only to the draft page and removed the Real Life section. Do we need to do another crowner for the name, or is everyone OK with "Reptilian Conspiracy"?

That crowner would probably be a good idea, unless we've definitively decided on Reptilian Conspiracy.

That said, I think I recall others saying TLP can have name crowners (though I'm the wrong person to ask, since I've only posted on TLP a few times and neither made nor currently intend to make any drafts), so holding the vote there may be a better idea than holding it here (though I don't see why it can't be attached to both the TRS thread and the TLP draft).

You can't always get what you want.

"Secret Reptilian Overlords" was twice in there, so I tagged one as a duplicate.

I'd like to apologize for all this.