My Little Pony: Cleanup Is Magic

To Whom It May Concern:

In case anyone is wondering about the Holidays Unwrapped edit I made months ago, it came to my knowledge that practically everyone in the MLP:EQ and MLP:FIM fanbases absolutely hated and despised the IDW 2014 Holidays Comic for its unspeakably horrific mean-spirited nature, so I thought it would have some merit to Holidays Unwrapped being a Surprisingly Improved Sequel to this since it was released years after that infamous comic.

Edited by P360360P on Mar 16th 2023 at 8:21:51 AM

The issue is that it's not a sequel.

And besides laking the deliberate connection to be a sequel, the general fan reaction to Holidays Unwrapped is judging it as it's own thing as opposed to in relation to the comic so the comic is not effecting it.

This was added to Characters.Friendship Is Magic Supporting Cast Other Locations:

• Demoted to Satellite Love Interest: Sugar Belle. When she first appeared, she and the other equal ponies foiled Starlight's plan and the latter got run out of town. Starting with "Hard to Say Anything", the closest Sugar Belle gets to development is "in a relationship with Big Mac".

I considered adding this prior but decided against as the rest of the equal ponies were straight Demoted to Extra, only getting cameos afterward, so Sugar Belle seems like the opposite "Promoted To Satellite Love Interest" as she was the only one to get any meaningful screentime, characterization, or story role afterward.

Looking back, Sugar Belle never got that much characterization in the S5 premier. The only thing keeping her and the Equal Four from being one-shots was their just above cameo roles in the S6 finale. So does Demoted apply if it didn't diminished her characterization and was a promotion in narrative role compared to the others?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Mar 18th 2023 at 6:27:15 AM

I think G5 got They Changed It, Now It Sucks! from Zaid Magenta Misanthro Pony so maybe we could remove that assuming it's still there given there's been a lot of complaining about how G5 ruined G4.

Edited by Klavice on Mar 19th 2023 at 10:21:32 AM

I would say Sugar Belle was promoted to satellite love interest, if anything, considering the rest of Equal town got demoted to very rare cameos after their debut episode. Demoted would suggest she had a bigger role than just being a one-off character for a single episode plus a few episodes. I think that trope is more for main characters.

I looked and couldn't find any such G5 entries. Do you have a link to them?

On the subject of They Changed It, Now It Sucks!:

• Many long-time fans dislike the way ponies look in Friendship Is Magic. They barely resemble ponies due to the stylized designs, It's not uncommon to hear people describe the ponies as looking more like ugly-looking Chihuahuas than horses. I assume it's only valid for collectors and pre-FIM fans, correct?
• In general, the show has a slow but noticeable shift from a prevalence of Slice of Life stories in the early seasons to a greater focus on adventure stories in the later ones. At various points in the show, fans have been unhappy with this trend, citing the focus on everyday adventures as what drove them to the show in the first place and finding a poor replacement in the newer stories. I believe this shift was mostly over season 2, as by the time the action episodes became contentious (season 5) it was more the content/quality than the change from slice of life.
• Season 2 was disliked by a pool of Slice of Life fans who were attracted to the show by the post-two-parter Season 1 episodes, as it was believed to feature a recurring villain (a belief that turned out to be mistaken, unless the school bully Diamond Tiara returning from season 1 counts), and the two-parter season premier has a noticeably dark story (and the villain was not permanently destroyed and did not undergo a Heel–Face Turn until Season 3). Seems redundant with above. And I believe this is when it solidified its popularity with general fans. If those who disliked the change were a minority/only fans for a fraction of it's run is the enough to count?
• Some fans became very cynical after Lauren Faust left the show, with even the admins of one forum admitting they stopped watching it early in Season 2. This attitude mostly seems to appear amongst the earliest G4 fans, however, and became steadily less prominent as increasing portions of the fandom became composed of people who started watching the show after this happened. Doesn't explain how her absence actually changed the show so the problem might be something else? Might be best to merge with the above two if valid as part of the change.
• "A Canterlot Wedding", the Season 2 finale, further alienated the slice-of-life crowd due to utilizing a high-stakes story focused on an invasion of Equestria, a similarly dark villain, and the use of physical violence. Contentious as it was, I believe WAY too many fans liked it to say it's this as opposed to Broken Base. Point can be merged with the above ones.
• Season 3 had the number of episodes cut in half, but still managed to become the most controversial season of the show (Season 2, now being considered by most S3 haters as part of the "Good Old Days" along with S1). It introduced a number of noticeable and permanent changes to the show's status quo, including the introduction of a new type of pony, the redemption of a major villain, and Twilight's transformation into an alicorn, that several fans were intensely unhappy with. The season length is It's Short, So It Sucks! not a change, not sure if Discord counts as it had some excited for the change especially given he won fans back in S4 (so does it no longer count?).
• Derpy Hooves in "The Last Roundup" entered this after Hasbro modified her voice, changed her expression to be less cross-eyed and removed Rainbow Dash's reference to her as "Derpy" after a Vocal Minority complained about how her portrayal could be seen as offensive to persons with special needs. A good part of the issue was that while many fans liked Derpy, there weren't a uniting idea of her personality. Was she "ditzy with googly eyes, but otherwise fine", a female equivalent of Ed, Billy or Patrick, or an actual pony with special needs? As is the major problem with canonizing fandom created/inspired characters, not everyone could be satisfied and the fandom started to eat each other. First part is valid. Suspect the rest is debates unrelated to the change so should be trimmed.
• Twilight's transformation into an alicorn was highly controversial. People left the fanbase over it, others threatened to do so, Lauren Faust (who, again, had nothing to do with this) got her Twitter flooded with people raging, and in general, the fandom was thrown into an uproar. The primary complaints came from those who feared this would turn Twilight into a Mary Sue-type character... despite Meghan McCarthy, the show's head writer saying that wouldn't happen, and that many of the alicorns seen on the show aren't quite as powerful as fans make them out to be, and have been shown weakened or defeated before. The fourth season has Twilight being nearly exactly the same as she was before. Ironically, this caused a few complaints in the other direction, as so little changed that some fans asked what the point of the change was in the first place. Lampshaded in "Twilight's Kingdom — Part 1" when Twilight herself admits that her new role as Princess hasn't really amounted to much. '''Latter half seems to be calling out how the complaints were unfair and concerns proved unfound, and given how she won back those who continued to follow it. So a question of how long does Sucks get before deeming too knee-jerk or temporary to count?
• "The Beginning of the End" caused this for King Sombra. Not only did it ignore his Character Development and Worldbuilding from My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic (IDW), but it also Retooled him into a stereotypical Evil Ham and Smug Snake (versus his usual, more-unique Coldness and Pragmatic Villainy); making a lot of fans deride him as In Name Only. Valid.
• The redesign of the changelings at the end of season 6 was another event that caused a lot of this. Some preferred the original edgy black design and there was also a Broken Aesop feeling with a message of goodness being tied to appearance. Backlash against their new designs valid. Broken Aesop misuse as it's the unpleasant messages that's contentious as opposed to it being self-contradictory. But my concern is the opposite message/implications that "redemption isn't valid unless you're force to keep your races detrimental traits" be as problematic so the message part be cut?
• My Little Pony: Equestria Girls: The fact that the main characters are humans (and Spike is a dog). That they have skin tones matching their pony coat colors. That they're all in high school. That they're all in dresses. That it's a kind of crossover with the main show. That it's a movie. That it might become a spinoff show. That, of all things, its intended demographic is for older girls and not the brony demographic (when the main show is mainly intended for young girls, but can be enjoyed by everyone, and the brony audience is outside its intended main demographic). It goes on and on... has a bit of Irony and Hypocrisy to it since upon seeing the character designs, complaints erupted on how "girly" the film is, and many fans are otherwise angry at haters for seeing the main show and assuming it is girly due to its name and character designs. Misuse, just Tainted by the Preview as it turned out to be a completely separate thing as opposed to changes to FIM.

Thoughts?

Sugar Belle is G4 exclusive as far as I know. I don't think any of the G4 characters have made an appearance so far beyond the old mane six and Discord.

Edited by Redmess on Mar 20th 2023 at 7:31:21 PM

This was added back to ShipSinking.Western Animation:

• Rainbow Dash and fellow Daring Do fan Quibble Pants got some Ship Tease in the Season 6 episode "Stranger Than Fanfiction", but Season 9's "Common Ground" shows that Quibble has a girlfriend, and Rainbow Dash enthusiastically approves, to the point where she helps his connect with his girlfriend's young daughter.

This was removed prior because their prior interaction was below the threshold of Ship Tease (Sinking requires in-work romantic interest to sink). I think the only pre-finale Tease Rainbow got was dancing with Soarin to the romantic song in "A Canterlot Wedding" but I belive even that's debated/debatable. Should the Sinking be cut as it was only Shipping Goggles as opposed to Tease or did they have legit subtext? (They lacked the blushing normally used to show such. Their interaction could be like Pinkie and Cheese but that only became clear Tease in hindsight.)

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Mar 22nd 2023 at 10:41:04 AM

If there was really no intended subtext, it could be repurposed as an Abandon Shipping entry, as many people who shipped Quibble Dash presumably dropped it after Quibble was revealed to have a girlfriend.

Edited by mightymewtron on Mar 22nd 2023 at 2:54:25 PM

I don't think there was any subtext, either. That's just shipping goggles.

Yeah I think aside from AJ, most of the RD ships aren't actual tease, just shipping goggles that think they see Rainbow Dash as into Soarin, or Fluttershy, or Twilight, or Spitfire, or Zephyr Breeze.

I think Faust's original intent was to have RD end up with Soarin but after she lost control of the show, it kind of fell through the cracks especially when AJ and RD have a sort of Belligerent Sexual Tension and or Slap-Slap-Kiss going on.

Edited by Klavice on Mar 23rd 2023 at 2:31:32 AM

Well, it doesn't help that Dash has no sense of personal space with her friends, especially early on in the show, but yeah, it's mostly shipping goggles.

I mean, during Sonic Rainboom she flew off with two male Wonderbolts and said "I've got plans!" while this was early on in the show its clear Dash isn't solely lesbian, rather she's bisexual at the very least but all the stuff with her and Soarin is Shipping Goggles. Quibble could very well have started as a crush, and it's implied she has feelings for Daring Do, but whether or not this is Les Yay or full on ship tease is more or less up to the viewer. Applejack on the other hand, has nothing with the opposite sex, and outright rejects Trenderhoof's advances. I'd say Dash is bisexual but her implied love interest is fully lesbian given she has some BST with Rarity too and the writers of EG outright stated Applejack and Rarity were written like a young couple.

Edited by Klavice on Mar 23rd 2023 at 11:29:17 AM

We should nevertheless not read too much into it, since the show explicitly avoids dealing with romantic relationships. That makes it kinda hard to really read these characters on a romantic level.

The first Equestria Girls movie giving Twilight a boyfriend was a huge thing for a reason. And it didn't carry over into the show at all. As far as the show is concerned, Twi might as well be asexual (which I'm sure some of you would love).

Edited by Redmess on Mar 23rd 2023 at 7:37:39 PM

Lauren Faust said there would be no romance unless it was important to the story like Spike's crush on Rarity an Rarity on Blueblood. So that sounds more like Accidental Innuendo than deliberate tease. And the one tease she got with Soarin was after Faust no longer had full influence on the show further casting doubt on if that was her intent. Faust's comment on Rainbow not being gay were objecting to assuming it from superficial stereotypes and stated "nowhere in the show is her sexual orientation ever referenced." So was the moment she got with Soarin actually tease (the others paired then, Spike x Sweetie Belle didn't stop his crush on Rarity and Rarity x Fancy Pants never had her fawn over him like her definite teases, so if those weren't tease...)?

Would Quibble x Rainbow fit Abandon Shipping as Quibble hooking up with someone old enough to be the mother of Rainbow's "sister" Scootaloo establish a age/maturity gap that killed enough interest in the ship that it's sinking relatively lacked the Die for Our Ship the others got?

Well, Faust left pretty early so IDK if her words mean anything in later seasons.

In any case, this is super off topic.

I still think it fits Abandon Shipping, though I don't think it's because of the age gap (which is honestly pretty weak evidence given the Vague Age nature of adult ponies) so much as people simply liking Quibble's dynamic better with Clear Sky.

I mean to be fair, unless we're talking EQG, Dash is in her mid to late twenties near the end of the series assuming each season takes a year or so, Scootaloo is about 8-12 whereas Wind Sprint is about 6-7. So technically (and a very common interpretation in the fandom prior to Scootaloo's parents being shown) that Rainbow Dash is Scootaloo's mother or adopted mother and is about the right age for it whereas Scootaloo's actual parents look middle-aged, not as old as Bow Hothoof and Windy Whistles but I'd say about 40-47. Rainbow Dash is implied to be a year younger than Fluttershy who is the oldest of the Mane 6, judging from Fluttershy's build in the Cutie Mark Chronicles, Twilight Sparkle is about college aged at the start of the show (20ish) and is old enough to be a surrogate mother to Spike so I'd say their age range is 20 at the start and 31 before the timeskip, especially since Parental Glideance makes Spitfire the same age as Rainbow Dash, despite looking a little older. I could go on and on about how the ponies ages as said before could be anywhere from early to late twenties at the start of the show. My point is, Rainbow Dash could very well have dated Quibble, but it was Patton Oswalt who requested his new wife and daughter were put in and for the CMC, at least for Seasons 4 onwards Dawson Casting is in effect with their voice actresses. But yes I noticed quite a bit of complaining about how clunky the Old Man Discord IDW arc was handled.

Edited by Klavice on Mar 24th 2023 at 12:26:27 PM

I think you are making a very big assumption in assuming that one year in real life (ie, a season) equals one year in the show. By that logic, all the elementary school ponies should now be adults by season 9, which they clearly are not. It's pretty clear that the show runs largely on Comic-Book Time, and while characters mature over the course of the show (making them seem older), there is no indication that they are actually ageing.

I feel like ponies' age ranges are whatever they need to be for the particular setup (i.e. their careers and/or school life) to work, and otherwise don't get much thought.

This is why I find the best way to sort ages is not by years but tiers (like baby, foal, adult, adult back when X was in a lower age tier, ex.), but that's more for the general pony thread if we want to continue this discussion.

We have a G5 thread for discussing that (not sure how relevant to the age debate as the comics complaints were unrelated). Clear Sky being just below the maturity tier of Rainbow's mother is still enough to suggest a gap between Quibble and Rainbow that's hurt the ship.

How's this?

• Abandon Shipping: Rainbow Dash and fellow Daring Do fan Quibble Pants were a popular ship after their interaction in "Stranger Than Fanfiction" until "Common Ground" where Quibble had a new girlfriend old enough to have a young daughter, voiced by his actors real life wife and daughter respectively. The couples chemistry along with Rainbow's enthusiastic approval discredited the romantic interpretation of her and Quibble's interaction and implying a maturity gap between them that further hurt interest such the new paring got practically no shipper backlash.

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Mar 25th 2023 at 7:02:22 AM

And I think you're right about maturity tiers, that is clearly how the writers are writing these characters. I think adults are generally divided into Young Adults, Parents, and Grandparents, with Young Adults having no romantic relationships or children, Parents having partners and children, and Grandparents being very elderly by default. Coupled with Babies and Foals, I think that covers nearly every character, save for the occasional oddity (like that one teenager pony).

Edited by Redmess on Mar 26th 2023 at 11:47:44 AM

Can the moral event horizon only be crossed once?

Well, by definition, yes.

The Moral Event Horizon occurs when a character does something so evil that it narratively marks them as irredeemable. It can only happen once by definition; if a character seems to slip into evil, goes back into good, and then goes back into evil, then evidently the first go hadn't made them irredeemable and cannot have been an Even Horizon.