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Author's Saving Throw cleanup

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I was inspired by the TRS post I made because there's still a mess of gushing and preemptive troping in the examples despite the definition of the trope being expanded. Like this for example:

YMMV.Super Mario 64

  • Author's Saving Throw:
    • In the Shoshinkai demo, taking care of Bowser was too easy: all you had to do was swing him by the tail and throw him at one of the bombs. In the final product, this was only the first of three Bowser fights, with the next two becoming progressively more difficult.
    • Once you make it to the top of Peach's castle, the back of it looks entirely unfinished. This was fixed in the DS remake where they covered it with a green hill.

I don't think the first example counts because that was prerelease. It's not like anyone other than the press had access to that version of the game. The second might count though.

Update: As of September 2022, per this TRS thread, examples should be moved from YMMV subpages to Trivia, and they require confirmation from Word of God and/or Word of Saint Paul regarding why the work was changed, so any on-page examples and wicks that don't fit the new restrictions must be removed. In-universe examples do not have this restriction. If the removal of examples on subpages renders the subpage too small, or if there are no valid examples left, Cut List the subpage, and, if there are any valid examples left, move them to the parent page (either the main page for Author's Saving Throw or a work's Trivia subpage).

If removing examples, consider whether they may fit Salvaged Story instead. For removals lacking creator conformation, there is an AST salvaging archive for sorting examples. Please put them there.

Edited by Tabs on Nov 19th 2022 at 11:31:32 AM

PlasmaPower Since: Jan, 2015
#1: Oct 30th 2020 at 6:52:07 AM

I was inspired by the TRS post I made because there's still a mess of gushing and preemptive troping in the examples despite the definition of the trope being expanded. Like this for example:

YMMV.Super Mario 64

  • Author's Saving Throw:
    • In the Shoshinkai demo, taking care of Bowser was too easy: all you had to do was swing him by the tail and throw him at one of the bombs. In the final product, this was only the first of three Bowser fights, with the next two becoming progressively more difficult.
    • Once you make it to the top of Peach's castle, the back of it looks entirely unfinished. This was fixed in the DS remake where they covered it with a green hill.

I don't think the first example counts because that was prerelease. It's not like anyone other than the press had access to that version of the game. The second might count though.

Update: As of September 2022, per this TRS thread, examples should be moved from YMMV subpages to Trivia, and they require confirmation from Word of God and/or Word of Saint Paul regarding why the work was changed, so any on-page examples and wicks that don't fit the new restrictions must be removed. In-universe examples do not have this restriction. If the removal of examples on subpages renders the subpage too small, or if there are no valid examples left, Cut List the subpage, and, if there are any valid examples left, move them to the parent page (either the main page for Author's Saving Throw or a work's Trivia subpage).

If removing examples, consider whether they may fit Salvaged Story instead. For removals lacking creator conformation, there is an AST salvaging archive for sorting examples. Please put them there.

Edited by Tabs on Nov 19th 2022 at 11:31:32 AM

Thomas fans needed! Come join me in the the show's cleanup thread!
WoodKnapp94 Since: May, 2020
#2: Oct 31st 2020 at 1:19:04 PM

I've got another example here:

AuthorsSavingThrow.WesternAnimation

I don't think the new series has even come out yet, which means it's still too early to tell if it's better than the film adaptation.

PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#3: Oct 31st 2020 at 1:20:50 PM

Also, Mike and Brian are no longer at the helm, so its potential is even more up in the air.

Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#4: Nov 19th 2020 at 4:24:32 PM

Spider-Man: Miles Morales:

  • Author's Saving Throw: Wilson Fisk's Starter Villain status in the main game didn't sit well with many fans of the character. As such, it's a welcome surprise to discover that Fisk is orchestrating the buy-out of Harlem from inside the Raft. While Miles stops his plans, it's only a small step to taking him down for good.

Was that DLC otherwise misuse, even if DLC may have been planned before. Cut?

Thought's about giving ATS a one week waiting period? It's the smallest one we have and since simply stating it only applies prerelease doesn't seem enough.

Kevjro7 Susjection! Since: Jan, 2020
Susjection!
#5: Dec 30th 2020 at 12:44:07 PM

AuthorsSavingThrow.Star Wars: First example in the Mandalorian folder:

  • Chapter 5, "The Gunslinger," fleshes out the Tusken Raiders more by showing them as willing to allow Mando to cross their land when he pays them for permission. This is followed up further in Chapter 9, "The Marshal", when they have much more screentime, willingly working with the residents of Mos Pelgo and forging a peace to take down a giant Krayt Dragon.
The entry never says that Tusken Raiders not being fleshed was ever a problem, and I've never heard any Star Wars fans complain about the Tusken Raiders being Flat Characters. Does it count if the writer tried to "fix" something that was never a problem or complained about at all?

LaundryPizza03 Maintenance? from Texas Since: Aug, 2020
Maintenance?
#6: Dec 30th 2020 at 12:55:34 PM

I should mention that the link in OP is broken, but the user is suspended.

I'm back!
Kevjro7 Susjection! Since: Jan, 2020
Susjection!
#7: Jan 1st 2021 at 9:55:02 AM

Thought's about giving ATS a one week waiting period? It's the smallest one we have and since simply stating it only applies prerelease doesn't seem enough.
I'm ok with a one week waiting period since the throw may end up backfiring upon release. The waiting period is enough time to see if it actually worked.

PlasmaPower Since: Jan, 2015
#8: Mar 27th 2021 at 3:44:00 PM

Some time ago, I deleted this entry for Author's Saving Throw:

  • Author's Saving Throw: Glavenus has sometimes been regarded as a Spotlight-Stealing Squad, due to how much more focus it got compared to other members of the Fated Four. In Generations, it was the only one of the four flagship monsters with a Deviant. While it was DLC, it was the only one of the Fated Four to be in Stories. And in Iceborne, it was the only fourth-generation mascot featured at all... and got a new subspecies on top of everything else. Come Rise, however, Glavenus's return has yet to be confirmed, while Mizutsune has gotten front-and-center treatment in early promotions.

Steam was the one who originally added the entry, I removed it on the grounds it was too soon to tell that Glavenus was returning, since he added it before the game was release. Then today, PC Awesomeness went and readded the entry with no changes whatsoever.

Also, Mizutsune is one of the Fated Four, which would disqualify it from being an Ensemble Darkhorse.

I’m going to try to invite both here to discuss this.

Thomas fans needed! Come join me in the the show's cleanup thread!
Steam Since: Nov, 2010
#9: Mar 27th 2021 at 8:19:47 PM

Find it kinda odd that I was called here in regards to an action I had no involvement in (the re-instatement of my entry) but I'll still argue my case for the original posting and now also its return.

Glavenus has been haunted by the issue of favoritism and getting the spotlight more than the other Fated Four ever since basic Generations. My original post discusses that, and there's other examples of it too like how the rest of the Fated Four are not on that 15th Anniversary poster.

It is a genuine complaint in the fandom. It's not even an issue of "why is it Glavenus?" and more "why is it ALWAYS Glavenus?" When you have a game that goes "we have four mascots here" but then subsequently throw in the caveat "we're only going to really pay attention to one of them", then you really just have a game with one mascot.

And Glavenus didn't even represent 4th gen games well at all either. The other members of the Fated Four correspond to a particular monster type that in some way connects them to their "representative" generation. Glavenus really doesn't (there were otherwise no Brute Wyverns introduced in 4th gen and none of its gimmicks really call back to verticality or any design choices or themes of the games either). But he's the one that always get featured. Not all returning mascots in Iceborne even got alternate species incarnations featured, but Glavenus gets to have a new one, something none of the other mascots got.

This is ultimately all why people complained Glavenus got preferential treatment and it was really starting to show.

Also keep in mind that this isn't the first time the franchise had mascots that were pushed too heavily. Zinogre also had this problem as well for a while, even getting to be the mascot featured at the attraction at USJ.

So then we get Rise. People hoped for Mizutsune from the outset due to representing third gen titles (and Portable 3rd most pointedly), and Mizutsune itself was fairly popular without getting featured anywhere near as much as Glavenus. Also above been argued that being part of the Fated Four somehow precludes it from being an Ensemble Dark Horse, a sentiment I don't agree with because within a group there is one member that clearly has been getting nigh-exclusive focus and attention, and even special attention even when looked at as part of the larger grouping of being the franchise's mascots.

Mizutsune's popularity stems from a very unique BGM, a unique status ailment in its fight that introduces a strong but satisfying risk-reward system, a very unique way of fighting the player, and a Deviant fight where it has a new gimmick that is readily apparent and engaging while also maintaining fairness. Its own identity is very strong and well-pronounced within the space that it was allotted, space that never eclipsed its fellow mascots Gammoth and Astalos, let alone Glavenus.

As far as mascots went, Mizutsune was underdeveloped and underutilized, its popularity not born from marketing or excessively being featured, just as a Darkhorse ought to be. And finally, with the announcement of the most thematically appropriate game for it to return in, it does, while simultaneously announcing that Leviathans -themselves a fairly underutilized monster type despite there being so many of them- were back at last.

Furthermore, Glavenus making a return wouldn't have invalidated this saving throw. So long as it didn't once more overshadowed Mizutsune or other returning mascots, like it has before, things would have been fine, at least in my book.

PlasmaPower Since: Jan, 2015
#10: Mar 27th 2021 at 9:00:15 PM

[up] I did end up rewriting the entry a bit so that it wouldn’t end up being dated, if that’s a good enough compromise.

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Steam Since: Nov, 2010
#11: Mar 27th 2021 at 9:06:20 PM

You can do whatever you want, I wrote it based off of my understanding of how the corresponding tropes worked. I wasn't too upset about it being taken down, though I did appreciate it being put back up.

PlasmaPower Since: Jan, 2015
#12: Mar 27th 2021 at 9:09:03 PM

It’s funny how you mention Mizutsune being an ED, yet it doesn’t have an entry anywhere on the Monster Hunter YMMV pages. Guess that’s a writeup for another time I guess.

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RustBeard Since: Sep, 2016
#13: Mar 28th 2021 at 8:01:30 AM

I found this on the YMMV page for Speechless:

  • Author's Saving Throw: The below concern that J.J. wasn't really focused on in the Pilot is fixed in the series proper, with the following episodes focused more on J.J. and his concerns than the family as a whole, though his mother's still a major focus.

I think those episodes were already produced when the pilot aired, so I doubt they were written to address criticisms of the pilot.

PCAwesomeness Since: May, 2015
#14: Mar 29th 2021 at 7:16:43 AM

I readded it because we've waited all this time and there's still no sign of Glavenus in the base game, nor is it particularly likely to appear in title updates.

When it does get added, I could add a little extra detail to the post, but for now, I want to treat it as completely absent. I guess it was a bit rash of me to add everything back word-for-word, though, seeing as you mentioned some parts not making sense (like Mizutsune being an Ensemble Dark Horse).

Also, I believe that the edit you made kinda sorta makes the point less clear.

Edited by PCAwesomeness on Mar 29th 2021 at 7:18:38 AM

dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#15: Mar 29th 2021 at 7:37:59 AM

Can flagship monsters in Monster Hunter even count for Ensemble Dark Horse? Ensemble Dark Horse is meant for minor characters, and a flagship monster isn't exactly a minor character in a Monster Hunter game.

AnoBakaDesu Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
#16: Mar 29th 2021 at 11:51:05 PM

[up] No, they shouldn't. ED should only apply for monsters with next to no story importance and no promotional coverage.

"They played us like a DAMN FIDDLE!" — Kazuhira Miller, Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain
Anddrix Since: Oct, 2014
#17: Apr 6th 2021 at 7:02:38 PM

Bringing up the following example from the game section of Superman Returns:

Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I know
Delibirda from Splatsville Since: Sep, 2020 Relationship Status: I wanna be your dog
#19: Apr 19th 2021 at 11:22:36 AM

[up][up]ZCE. Also, it seems like an minor improvement,

"Listen up, Marina, because this is SUPER important. Whatever you do, don't eat th“ “DON'T EAT WHAT?! Your text box ran out of space!”
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#20: Apr 19th 2021 at 11:24:08 AM

[up][up]Kevin always said that the mandarin in iron man wasn't ever meant to be the real thing so it's not am example anyway.

Authors saving throw requires it to be in response to the fans.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#21: Apr 20th 2021 at 12:16:10 PM

AuthorsSavingThrow.Marvel Cinematic Universe:

Phase 4

  • Continuing on Phase 3's trend of increasing diversity in the MCU, this is one of the stated goals of Phase 4. In addition to planned sequels to both Captain Marvel and Black Panther, the Phase 4 announcement includes a currently-undated Blade reboot (with Green Book star Mahershala Ali as the titular character), Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings (with a primarily-Asian cast both in front of and behind the camera, among them being the Mandarin), and Thor: Love and Thunder (which is confirmed to feature Jane Foster as female Thor). They also confirmed that LGBT+ representation (something the MCU has been heavily criticized for lacking in a number of circles) is finally being introduced to the MCU, with particular confirmation that Valkyrie (whose bisexuality from the comics was infamously cut from Thor: Ragnarok) would be shown "looking for a queen" in Thor: Love and Thunder.
    • This is taken even further during D23 of the same year, with confirmation that Ms. Marvel (the first Muslim superhero to get her own solo Marvel comic) and She-Hulk would both be getting solo Disney+ series during Phase 4.
  • Following on from the infamous Mandarin twist mentioned above, it was officially confirmed that the real Mandarin would finally appear and take center stage as the Big Bad of Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings.

All prerelease so misuse. Will cut unless I hear anything.

Thoughts on a official waiting period for AST?

PlasmaPower Since: Jan, 2015
#22: Apr 20th 2021 at 2:52:55 PM

[up] The Black Panther sequel was taken off the schedule anyway, due to unfortunate circumstances.

Also, "infamous Mandarin twist." What's the context there?

Edited by PlasmaPower on Apr 20th 2021 at 6:55:08 AM

Thomas fans needed! Come join me in the the show's cleanup thread!
dsneybuf Since: Jul, 2009
#23: May 25th 2021 at 5:18:35 AM

If the Author's Saving Throw section for YMMV.Shang Chi And The Legend Of The Ten Rings ever comes back, can we please leave out the Long List of the MCU's previous Asian crimefighters? It looked like an effort to undermine Shang-Chi's potential to become someone special, and gloss over areas of Asian representation in which the MCU has room for improvement. (For instance, all of the Asians from Jeph Loeb's TV shows no longer belong to the canon; several had their roles reduced in reappearances; only five from Infinity Saga movies got their actors' names to appear on the top of the poster - and only one of those five is a human crimefighter.)

To boot, no one ever answered my question as to why mentions of Shang-Chi necessarily need such a list accompanying them, especially since people can talk about Black Panther or Captain Marvel without rattling off all of the African-Americans or women in the MCU.

crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#24: May 25th 2021 at 11:17:05 AM

Thoughts on a official waiting period for AST?
The only one I'd support is "the work is released", but I don't think it's needed. Remember that you can fail the re-roll, it just has to be a change in response to fans.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
RustBeard Since: Sep, 2016
#25: May 25th 2021 at 11:29:42 AM

Could we require an official citation for examples to prove that the creators were responding to fan criticism?


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