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(Edited Mar 28 2024, adding bullet about OTC and amending layout a little)

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 11th 2024 at 3:20:25 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#2351: Sep 16th 2021 at 12:24:04 PM

[up][up] Dude, if what I linked is what you call a "reasonable tone", then we are never going to come to any sort of agreement. It's that simple.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#2352: Sep 16th 2021 at 12:42:09 PM

I'm talking about the criticisms I've seen from others in this thread, such as Alley, who did not attack you personally and simply pointed at a pattern of behavior that is frustrating users. Don't engage assholes, yes, but why ignore the people who are speaking seemingly in good faith?

[down]I did not see any posts in the other thread so I apologize for speaking without full context. But there do seem to be people pointing out potentially legit issues without demanding his head on a platter, is my point.

Edited by mightymewtron on Sep 16th 2021 at 4:29:32 AM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#2353: Sep 16th 2021 at 1:04:47 PM

When you are calling a person an example of Fan Dumb, it stops being constructive, which is the only kind of criticism that should be towards another users.

So there is no legitimate way to respond to that at that point. It's pretty much a form of flaming to begin with.

That doesn't really excuse the other stuff Fighteer said afterwards(namely the smug attitude, etc.) either, obviously. That's not really a good tone to take either. Both are bad.

When calling out someone, it needs to be appropriate. One thing worth noting is that you're trying to be reasonable here with a respectful tone, mightymewtron. Something Alley Oop wasn't going for. Using inflammatory statements is not "reasonable" in any way. That's pretty much the opposite of good faith.

Shadow?
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#2354: Sep 16th 2021 at 1:14:46 PM

See, the fun thing about all this is that there's no way for me to respond to it. It ascribes motives to me and impeaches my character in a way that automatically absorbs any challenge I make as part of my obsession or whatever.

I mean, ultimately nobody can really know what your motivations are or what you're really thinking any more than they can anyone else. It's not like any of us can really know whether Alley's assessment of your mindspace is accurate or not, but what it really comes down to as far as what's relevant is the criticism that you get defensive over the subject of Wo W (and other things) to the point of coming across as unreasonable and it ends up harming whatever discussion at hand and makes it difficult to engage with you about the subject, for which we don't need to know your motivations to weigh in whether it's true or not, simply to read your posts.

As far as the incident in question goes, I can actually understand why Fighteer might have thought Memers' post is an indictment of people still playing the game (and by extension, himself), but I don't really think the walls of text needing to defend himself or his decision to support Blizzard are really necessary (I don't think anyone really cares either way what he does with his money). If he really thought it was a personal attack he could have just reported it, as Septimus himself stated in his post. For what it's worth Memers already apologized and stated he didn't mean for it to be a personal dig.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Sep 16th 2021 at 5:20:46 AM

themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#2355: Sep 16th 2021 at 1:52:57 PM

Christ another massive argument. Well at least this time I’ve learned from other times, and I will not engage with any posts unless they directly relate to me. Everyone can have another massive 50-page blowup without me. I am not risking a thump or worse.

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#2356: Sep 16th 2021 at 2:29:52 PM

Oh god it’s this shit again…

Right, as someone who doesn’t post in or read the Jim Sterling thread, can I ask for an explanation in this thread as to what happened this time?

There is definitely something about the thread by the way, we’ve had these issues in OTC in the past but this is more long-running.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Robrecht Your friendly neighbourhood Regent from The Netherlands Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
#2357: Sep 16th 2021 at 2:31:19 PM

You're not getting rid of me, so we're just going to have to come to some kind of understanding or mutual accommodation.

Dude, that soooo did not help.

The general consensus among your critics, even the ones who like you is that you're so slow to grow out of your bad behaviour is because there's a shortage of moderators and that means that you never get more consequences for your bad behaviour than a slap on the wrist.

Actively flaunting the security of your position is not a good look.

Angry gets shit done.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#2358: Sep 16th 2021 at 2:38:13 PM

Oh please, he’d never get more than a slap on the wrist not because of the mod shortage but because the Admins aren’t going to throw away a useful wiki moderator because they occasionally piss of some folks on the forums.

The entire forums are a side item to the actual wiki, the admins would likely rather shut the forums down than start firing wiki mods for the sake of forum people.

As much as I’m sick of this drama and do often find Fighteer annoying I’m aware that I’m in a minority.

  • A minority if site users are actual editors.
  • I’ve not seen the number but I’m pretty sure a minority (or narrow majority) of editors actually use the forums.
  • Within the forum it’s only a small minority of people who actually deal with Fighteer when it comes to arguments and debates.

Sure a majority of that last group might find him a bit of an arse, but that group is tiny compared to the actual user-base of this site.

Edit: Also, I don’t think that was actually intended as a flaunt by Fighteer. I think it was meant more as a pig-headed “we’re gonna have to work this out so let’s bloody work on it”. I think it was an invite to work with him mutually rather than a brag.

Edited by Silasw on Sep 16th 2021 at 10:41:09 AM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Kevjro7 Susjection! Since: Jan, 2020
Susjection!
#2359: Sep 16th 2021 at 2:40:27 PM

Right, as someone who doesn’t post in or read the Jim Sterling thread, can I ask for an explanation in this thread as to what happened this time?
A post in the Jim Thread said that Bobby won't be fired until people stop playing WoW, said that some people (people as in plural, not singular) in the thread are still subbed to WoW, and Fighteer took that as a personal attack.

Edit: Changed the arrows into a quote.

Edited by Kevjro7 on Sep 16th 2021 at 2:43:57 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#2360: Sep 16th 2021 at 2:51:04 PM

Okay then my obvious follow up question. When Fighteer ignored Septimus’ prod to get back on topic and not make the discussion about individual posters, did anyone hollar him (as I just did) and give the mods a chance to respond?

Because right now I’ve got this feeling that the other mods are about to come back and wonder why nobody gave them five minutes to deal with the situation before escalating it to this thread.

Shit, I’d personally suggest that any tangent that gets into the Blizzard situation generally (as opposed to Jim’s take on it) should be redirected to OTC anyway.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
DivineFlame100 Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#2361: Sep 16th 2021 at 2:54:19 PM

[up]Hence why I advocate for the Jim thread to be moved to OTC.

Robrecht Your friendly neighbourhood Regent from The Netherlands Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
#2362: Sep 16th 2021 at 2:56:30 PM

There is definitely something about the thread by the way, we’ve had these issues in OTC in the past but this is more long-running.

There's two commonalities to every major upset in that thread:

The thread itself and Fighteer.

The thread is fine so long the latest Jimquisition episode wasn't one that leans heavily into James Stephanie's politics and even then it's fine so long it's a part of Sterling's politics Fighteer doesn't disagree with.

And it almost always follows the same pattern:
- Some minor detail sparks a disagreement with Fighteer on one side and a couple of people on the other.
- Fighteer refuses to let the subject rest even when others try to move on.
- The other people go 'ok, fine, guess we're doing this' and argue back and the consensus turns firmly against Fighteer.
- Fighteer gives a firm warning post in his mod voice (if not the official mod colour scheme) that 'the thread has derailed'.

So no, there's not something going on with the thread. Take Fighteer out of it and the thread is fine.

For a while there, I was worried that maybe it was me. That I was the one riling up Fighteer like we used to rile each other up on OTC, but I checked and, nope, it happens even when I'm not involved. (Case in point: Right this moment.)

[up] As someone who is banned from OTC but not from New Media, I strongly disagree. If Fighteer keeps treating the thread like an OTC thread and trying to start OTC debates there, even though it's not an OTC thread, the solution is not to move the thread to OTC so that Fighteer is no longer in the wrong for treating it like an OTC thread.

Edited by Robrecht on Sep 16th 2021 at 12:00:28 PM

Angry gets shit done.
Kevjro7 Susjection! Since: Jan, 2020
Susjection!
#2363: Sep 16th 2021 at 3:01:34 PM

it happens even when I'm not involved.
Rob is right about this. The last time drama with the Jim thread leaked here—drama that came from a discussion that began with this post and ended with this post—Rob didn't post anything.

Edited by Kevjro7 on Sep 16th 2021 at 3:04:32 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#2364: Sep 16th 2021 at 3:04:43 PM

There seems to be a third communality.

- People who don’t like Fighteer and get snippy with him.

I’m probably one of a handful of people on the forum who can be productively snippy with Fighter. It takes a lot of work.

Posts like “Is paying for your Wo W subscription better or worse than playing for a waifu gatcha Fighteer?” are about a on-topic and productive to the conversation as Fighteer’s diatribe on why he still plays Wo W.

Why do you think Fighteer is so in the defensive about the idea of people making person attacks against him? Because a bunch of posters have made it very clear that they don’t like him and want him out of the thread.

If I remember right people got similarly snippy last time.

[up] Lots of people find Fighteer annoying and get unproductively snippy with/about him, you can see many of them in this thread whenever a Fighteer issue comes up.

As someone who is banned from OTC but not from New Media, I strongly disagree. If Fighteer keeps treating the thread like an OTC thread and trying to start OTC debates there, even though it's not an OTC thread, the solution is not to move the thread to OTC so that Fighteer is no longer in the wrong for treating it like an OTC thread.

This I’m very much in agreement with. We have an appropriate OTC thread for this stuff, all we need is the mods to be willing to firmly enforce the divide between the threads and push stuff to the appropriate thread.

I feel like in this instance the mods haven’t been given the chance to do that. But with the rather soft approach the mods tend to take to Fighteer situations (as they can’t ban him and won’t ban only the other people involve) I can understand the hesitancy. I still think the other mods should have been allowed a chance to come in and deliver some appropriate thumps before things got escalated here.

Edited by Silasw on Sep 16th 2021 at 11:14:51 AM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#2365: Sep 16th 2021 at 3:14:59 PM

I think Fighteer has the right to call out people with personal grudges against him, because there's no shortage of people who just disagree with Fighteer's approach and take it out on a nonproductive (sometimes even harassing) manner.

I just have issues with the attitude of "you're not getting rid of me so let's just all quiet down." Now, in the context of shutting down people complaining about Fighteer due to personal grudges, that makes sense. In the context of criticizing mods in general? That's a terrible attitude and discourages collaborative discussions between mods and users. I've seen argumentative users in Edit Banned use similar language and I think that's what makes some people uneasy.

Again, not saying Fighteer or his detractors are right or wrong, but I see where the discomfort with Fighteer's attitude is coming from, though I also see where the attitude itself comes from. We need a way to acknowledge why this discussion is happening without assuming every single user has the same mindset.

Edited by mightymewtron on Sep 16th 2021 at 6:15:16 AM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#2366: Sep 16th 2021 at 3:28:10 PM

Given that Fighteer has a personal hatedom that extends well beyond this site (mainly thanks to his prominent role as moderator banning troublemakers), I think it is safe to say some people just have it out for him, yes. I think we have to consider that too when looking at the Sterling thread.

As for moving it to OTC, I don't think that is a good idea. It is still a media thread, even if it gets rather political at times. We have other media threads that do this on occasion, and they seem to be doing fine there. And given that Jim Sterling is ostensibly still a video game reviewer first and foremost, I think it stands to reason to keep the thread in media.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Robrecht Your friendly neighbourhood Regent from The Netherlands Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
#2367: Sep 16th 2021 at 3:30:27 PM

I think Fighteer has the right to call out people with personal grudges against him, because there's no shortage of people who just disagree with Fighteer's approach and take it out on a nonproductive (sometimes even harassing) manner.

Calling Fighteer out on his personal grudge against me (regardless of whether I was right) is the inciting incident for my OTC ban, so...

The fuck he does.

Edited by Robrecht on Sep 16th 2021 at 12:31:09 PM

Angry gets shit done.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#2368: Sep 16th 2021 at 3:38:37 PM

Yes, I wonder why a Mod who's more than happy to remind us that he can't be gotten rid of has an off-site hatedom. Because you don't seem to understand that Fighteer talks smack to you too, Redmess. That's why this keep coming to a head.

mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#2369: Sep 16th 2021 at 3:40:24 PM

When I refer to Fighteer's offsite hatedom, I'm talking about harassment and doxxing forums. I get why he'd be defensive in light of that shit, even if it's disproportionate at times and I don't always agree, I get it.

I'd also like to mention that I've disagreed with Fighteer and argued with him before but have made a point not to resort to excessive bitterness or personal attacks. Even if he resorts to that, that doesn't mean I would do the same.

Edited by mightymewtron on Sep 16th 2021 at 6:42:18 AM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#2370: Sep 16th 2021 at 3:42:59 PM

The personal grudges don't belong on the forums. They can take that to PM's, where it's private, so it can be worked out. They're not something for the public.

That includes calling out Fighteer likewise in an off-topic manner like was pointed out earlier. That wasn't actually a core part of the topic, and I saw it before it got an edit too. The original message was somewhat topic-related, while the other completely derailed it just to further some need to call out an issue that... isn't even core to the thread anymore(the completely random waifu gacha statement, which let's be real, was clearly some kind of bait).

Also, Fighteer only replied after Memers continued the thing, and the latest mod post said nothing about "being off-topic", so he pretty clearly was not off-topic. He only responded to Memers post appropriately. This honestly was not on-topic, and basically trying to bait out more of a derail. So yeah, I'd say this one's not entirely on Fighteer yet again.

In the end, it still takes two to tango. If people keep baiting him, they're also causing issues. You don't want him to talk about it? Well, don't respond. That's part of why it kept going on. People kept responding too. Note, I'm only talking of posts after the mod hat which is on the same page, though.

I get the other side too. Fighteer's responses can become a bit too rough at times, but it also seems like the thread can't go with political parts in its current state. That's not just on Fighteer. That's something that happens due to what Jim Sterling talks about.

Shadow?
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#2371: Sep 16th 2021 at 3:43:49 PM

[up][up]And the point I'm making is none of those have to do with anything here, so acting like it does only exposes an attempt to deflect the argument to something irrelevant.

Edited by VeryMelon on Sep 16th 2021 at 6:47:17 AM

Robrecht Your friendly neighbourhood Regent from The Netherlands Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
#2372: Sep 16th 2021 at 3:46:23 PM

Since we're apparently just spouting wild theories now, here's mine:

Possibly the reason why people in the Jim Sterling thread particularly refuse to take Fighteer's shit is that James Stephanie's recent body of work is very heavy on pointing out entitled old white men who people they don't like like shit and get away with it because they're in a position of power and there's a certain level of resonance there.

Edit:

Also, Fighteer only replied after Memers continued the thing, and the latest mod post said nothing about "being off-topic", so he pretty clearly was not off-topic. He only responded to Memers post appropriately. This honestly was not on-topic, and basically trying to bait out more of a derail. So yeah, I'd say this one's not entirely on Fighteer yet again.

Ah yes, Very Melon's reference to the previous time Fighteer got argumentative in the thread was what was 'off-topic'... Not Fighteer's rambly justification for why he still gives Activision-Blizzard money (No one asked) where he hijacks socialist jargon he doesn't understand ('no ethical consumption under capitalism' does not mean 'it's morally fine if you give shitty people money for luxury items'.) and generally comes off as someone who feels that what he's doing is shitty and knows that his justification is bullshit, but who still does it because he doesn't want to think of himself as an asshole.

Edited by Robrecht on Sep 16th 2021 at 12:57:28 PM

Angry gets shit done.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#2373: Sep 16th 2021 at 3:49:09 PM

Whatever your opinion of the situation, I don't think Fighteer's off-site hatedom has any relevance to the subject at hand and I'm kind of puzzled as to why that was even brought up.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#2374: Sep 16th 2021 at 3:51:10 PM

The truth of the matter is this discussion is functionally irrelevant. Were this any other user, this would have been settled a long time ago with some light discussion about problematic behavior. But Fighteer simply won't.

Fighteer is untouchable on account of his position and dilligence at it (and he knows it, as he has made very clear) so what happens is a false equivalence where people try to imply like Fighteer being belligerent is a problem of the thread or of whoever chooses to engage with him in any manner (which is what Silas has essentially said). Basically everything is a problem but Fighteer's behavior. Or, at best, "both sides were at fault here" in some basic bothsideism and call it a day.

So with that what comes down to it is accusations of clique-y behavior (the buzzword of the century when it comes to moderation team criticisms), "thread toxicity", the (completely unrelated to the users involved) Kiwifarms and encyclopedia dramatica doxxings, or perceived snappy behavior at Fighteer going out of his way to instigate a fight.

But all of that is a smokescreen to the truth of the matter of Fighteer being belligerent (in a manner a lot of users have been in the past), but his position rendering him complete impunity and that impunity onto itself fostering a counter-belligerence towards him. There has been no indication this will change, and it won't. The impunity will remain, which is why the best solution Silas can put forward is "don't engage Fighteer unless you have a academic knowledge of his own personality and biases like you know your own family so as to avoid stepping on his eggshells".

Edited by Gaon on Sep 16th 2021 at 3:52:18 AM

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#2375: Sep 16th 2021 at 3:52:26 PM

What "wild theories" are we even talking about? Fighteer objectively has a hatedom and he knows about it, of course it's going to make this situation more heated on all sides because the same arguments keep happening to various degrees. I'm not even defending Fighteer, because I literally criticized his tone earlier, I'm just explaining the feedback loop that makes this all so shitty. There have been people in related debates who wanted Fighteer off the site entirely and insisted the mods reveal whether he was being kicked off or not.

Possibly the reason why people in the Jim Sterling thread particularly refuse to take Fighteer's shit is that James Stephanie's recent body of work is very heavy on pointing out entitled old white men who people they don't like like shit and get away with it because they're in a position of power and there's a certain level of resonance there.

That sounds like a personal attack and is definitely not helping the look for the Jimquisition thread.

Edited by mightymewtron on Sep 16th 2021 at 6:53:33 AM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

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