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Posts that use this thread in place of the sections listed in the bulleted list above are off-topic.
We're aware that the Edit Banned thread has a Non-Indicative Name, due to it also covering non-editing suspensions. We're not sure whether the name for that thread can even be edited without breaking the special coding that keeps posting restricted to mods and suspended users, so we're leaving it alone for now, because better safe than sorry.
(Edited Mar 28 2024, adding bullet about OTC and amending layout a little)

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 11th 2024 at 3:20:25 AM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#8951: Sep 11th 2023 at 9:03:37 AM

[up][up] That's a genuine concern, and we should ask the other admins to look at that.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#8952: Sep 11th 2023 at 9:04:25 AM

[up]Asking that serious issues only be raised in PMs to one person is the exact opposite of making the site more responsive. Greater control of the reporting process is not the same as greater efficiency in detecting/resolving issues, even if the person in control is entirely trustworthy and competent.

What's precedent ever done for us?
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#8953: Sep 11th 2023 at 9:04:59 AM

I don't want to dogpile on Kory or extend a closed incident any further, but I think this whole situation would have caused a lot less fuss if they had communicated with the rest of the forum a little better about this. I think if they had taken a little more time to properly explain the situation in their initial response, as well as their motivations for giving this user a second chance and been a little more diplomatic about the admin's desires to change policy this probably wouldn't have blown up to such a fiasco.

Of course, that being said there are a number of concerns about this incident regardless of communication. The fact that the user's posting history does not apparently correspond to the mitigating circumstances they spoke about in their appeal shows a dishonesty that taints this appeal, and puts a lot of suspicion on any genuine desire to change their behavior or beliefs. I'm not going to accuse the administration of not doing due dilligence or anything too melodramatic, but it is a very strange set of circumstances and one which doesn't engender a lot of trust.

Which is another topic I'd like to briefly speak about: technically speaking, what kory said earlier is strictly true. Forums like tvtropes are not democracies, the administration certainly doesn't need to care about user opinion and is free to set policy as they like. But ultimately, the whole ethos on this site relies on community involvement, without users feeling comfortable posting on the site and bringing up potential issues to the staff, the community loses trust and is liable to try spending their time elsewhere. That whole incident that torpeo'd the thread and this heavy-handed approach to communication do not engender trust in the slightest.

The idea that a user's history of contributions to the wiki or the forum merits at least some consideration in disciplinary matters isn't necessarily an idea without merit, but in this specific circumstance it sort of feels like activity on the site was prioritized over keeping the forum and wiki a safe place for LGBT+ people.

I hope that is not indicative of future policy. The quantity of contribution should absolutely not trump the quality of contribution, which includes whether the person in question is trafficking prejudiced behavior on the forums or wiki.

To be quite blunt, this whole affair has given me serious reservations about the direction of the site going forward and made me question if i want to keep using the site. I dont want to speak for everyone else but i would not be surprised if this becomes a more popular sentiment among users if this trend continues into the future.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Sep 11th 2023 at 1:11:41 PM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#8954: Sep 11th 2023 at 9:06:30 AM

Democracy or not "consent of the governed" is still a Thing.

[down] Even a company can only do so much of the employees go on strike. The metaphor holds.

Edited by sgamer82 on Sep 11th 2023 at 9:14:37 AM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#8955: Sep 11th 2023 at 9:10:19 AM

Agreed, we should be able to contact other admins if necessary.

[up] It's a company. We don't elect the admins, and they do not ask for our consent for hiring any of them.

Also, they are not a government, so consent of the governed doesn't play into this anyway.

Edited by Redmess on Sep 11th 2023 at 6:13:49 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#8956: Sep 11th 2023 at 9:12:44 AM

Regardless of consent, it should again be stated that sites like this run largely on herd dynamics - they're too large for conduct to be micromanaged, and so people largely follow the examples of other posters and staff. Clarity, responsiveness, and trustworthiness help the folks in charge manage site culture more swiftly, efficiently, and precisely, while being secretive, quiet, and capricious creates chaos.

What's precedent ever done for us?
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#8957: Sep 11th 2023 at 9:15:28 AM

Does it, though? The mods seem to be fairly capable of moderating users to a great amount of detail, especially with the holler system (which, I should mention, is the primary thing by which they find out problematic behaviour, so if something doesn't get hollered, that's really on us, the users, not on the mods).

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#8958: Sep 11th 2023 at 9:17:33 AM

Re this post, fair enough.

The only thing left for me is that moderation can preferably be left to moderators and administarion to administrators until contacted. What's the threshold for "major issues"?

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#8959: Sep 11th 2023 at 9:20:26 AM

moderation can preferably be left to moderators and administarion to administrators until contacted.

This a thousand times over. I think I speak for the community when I say I don't want Kory attempting to moderate us anymore. It's disastrous. Nobody trusts him. Keep to the technical stuff. Do what you're being paid for, for God's sake.

Like I said, the mod team was doing a decent job from early 2022 up until this incident. Now we're having resignations over this.

Likewise, I want clarification as to the Godzilla Threshold as to what a "major issue" actually worth contacting administration would be constituted as. As aforementioned right now that metric is nebulous.

Edited by Scraggle on Sep 11th 2023 at 10:22:09 AM

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#8960: Sep 11th 2023 at 9:22:55 AM

I have to question why we should be expected to trust administrators who make arbitrary decisions, childishly tell users to stop talking when users criticize said decisions and unilaterally change entire rules that have existed for years just because they don't want to be held to them, and abuse administrative authority to try and silence and intimidate dissenters while saying repeatedly and boldly that we should have no say in how the site that we voluntarily contribute our time and effort to should function.

Expecting the community to trust the administrators with no apology or accountability is completely unfair after an incident like this.

Edited by Riley1sCool on Sep 11th 2023 at 9:26:58 AM

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#8961: Sep 11th 2023 at 9:25:04 AM

[up][up][up][up]TV Tropes is a colossal and elderly site with very low barriers to entry. I can 100% assure you that most editing activity occurs without ever crossing the sightlines of the mods or forumgoers, and relies almost exclusively on follow-the-leader convention and personal troper obsessions projects as a means of ensuring quality and consistency. It's a machine driven by culture far more than by hard-and-fast rules.

Edited by Iaculus on Sep 11th 2023 at 4:25:42 PM

What's precedent ever done for us?
Zuxtron Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel from Node 03 (On A Trope Odyssey)
#8962: Sep 11th 2023 at 9:25:12 AM

The way I see it, AgProv wasn't banned without warning. They were suspended first, and the suspension is the warning (this is standard TV Tropes procedure, meant to force the user to come to the thread so their problem can be resolved).

Then, their appeal showed that they knew what they did wrong and only promised to keep their transphobia under wraps. Maybe they could have been allowed one more message to respond, but I think it's also reasonable to go right for the bounce in the face of this kind of behavior.

mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#8963: Sep 11th 2023 at 9:25:30 AM

So I do appreciate the other admins weighing in and clarifying that they do want to be less hasty in the future. I also want to move away from this specific incident with Ag (because getting hung up on whether he should be banned for good seems to be distracting from other matters and possibly veers into mini-modding) and onto the broader picture of what it means for moderation and administration.

This new admin involvement has me worried the moderators have no real power if one admin fiat can overtake that. Kory also admitted he had not been aware of the moderation discussion thread until very recently, yet was insisting it was a negative to the site without any evidence in favor of that claim besides his personal preference for moderation. Overturning mod consensus to unban anybody also puts me off. What exactly is left for moderators to do under this new system if they don't have final say? Make smaller technical decisions i.e. locking threads? I thought the Engineer position would handle that. It feels like adding more work for the admins, while the earlier insistence on not using ATT for public reports (which is like half its purpose) also means the mods, and by proxy the admins, would have a greater workload as the greater troperbase would not be aware of what problematic edits to clean up until they stumble across rhem by chance.

Generally I'm wary about the idea of admin fiat because, well, the site has had that and it contributed to our negative image offsite. I wasn't really active back then but we've cleaned up unclear images or jokes on trope pages that only persisted because Fast Eddie thought they were funny. I don't like that mentality returning, especially not for more serious issues like suspensions or the distribution of user power.

Edited by mightymewtron on Sep 11th 2023 at 12:27:59 PM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#8964: Sep 11th 2023 at 9:25:39 AM

Like at bare minimum I want someone capable of taking responsibility for their own mistakes. On this thread, GastonRabbit (IIRC) showed that self-awareness when they revoked an unfair ban and then optioned to step back and take a breather.

Kory can't even do that.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#8965: Sep 11th 2023 at 9:28:53 AM

@Iaculus: Oh, my bad, yes I agree, I thought you meant forum posts.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Tabs Since: Jan, 2001
#8966: Sep 11th 2023 at 9:30:16 AM

What's the threshold for "major issues"?

#8909

We want major incidents, one that would require removal of a mod perhaps, reported to us.

So, like, really severe.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#8967: Sep 11th 2023 at 9:31:35 AM

Okay. Right now, we're definitely past that threshold because the question is now "what do we do about admin abuse?"

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#8968: Sep 11th 2023 at 9:31:45 AM

Wow, this thread exploded again. I've tried to catch up but may not have understood everything (or anything)

But I'll just chime in with everyone pointing out that when you're saying 'you don't need to worry about moderator abuse now I'm taking an interest' and you follow that up by saying 'this conversation is over' and banning people and closing the thread ("to cool off" despite the that fact it wasn't getting heating imo) because they don't accept that pronouncement, it doesn't inspire confidence.

It doesn't apply to moderator/admin decisions but a large part of the site explicitly works on consensus and people expect to be allowed to discuss things.

Edited by dcutter2 on Sep 11th 2023 at 5:34:27 PM

Agentofchaos A God Am I from Somewhere in the Universe Since: Dec, 2021
#8969: Sep 11th 2023 at 9:31:58 AM

I wouldn't trust someone to moderate anything if their response to any criticism is to unilaterally change the rules to suit them and just basically shout "SHUT UP! SHUT UP! SHUT UP! I CAN DO WHATEVER I WANT! YOU CAN'T STOP ME!" when people question that, let alone if the criticism was for unbanning a bigot

"We'll meet again" | 🏳️‍⚧️
DevKlay MOD Since: Apr, 2018
#8970: Sep 11th 2023 at 9:32:15 AM

Major Issues are any issues that might constitute the removal of a mod (as this can only be done by admins). Again, we apologize for not always being around for those moments that have happened, but this is a duty that we will be watching closely as to not have any disasters again. We would like to leave all mod duties to mods.

Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#8971: Sep 11th 2023 at 9:32:16 AM

[up] If that's all (basically how it's used to be), sounds good to me. Would just want to reiterate that communication first is important.

Edited by Amonimus on Sep 11th 2023 at 7:33:47 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#8972: Sep 11th 2023 at 9:33:12 AM

And to rather petulantly say that not only would one more person saying anything lead to a thread lock, but to throw in that it would be that person’s fault specifically. The post has been edited since but it’s a horrible look for the person suspending people to eh throwing insults like that towards people just questioning him

Major Issues are any issues that might constitute the removal of a mod (as this can only be done by admins). Again, we apologize for not always being around for those moments that have happened, but this is a duty that we will be watching closely as to not have any disasters again. We would like to leave all mod duties to mods.

In that case, is there any reason why the OP of this thread can't be reverted back to what it was before Kory unilaterally changed it?

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Sep 11th 2023 at 12:39:21 PM

amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#8974: Sep 11th 2023 at 9:36:33 AM

Where, however, is our assurance that the admins themselves will not engage in abusive conduct? There has been no apology for the immature attitude taken, for the overt hostility toward users, and for the unfair suspensions that bluntly abused administrative power. There has been no assurance that admins will not use their power to randomly change rules, try to arbitrarily end conversations, and intimidate users.

And the assurance that all mod duties will be left to the mods rings hollow when a unilateral decision has already been made and there is no sign of interest in undoing it. The only apology has been for "not being around in the past" and not for the blatant abuse of admin privileges in the past few days.

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#8975: Sep 11th 2023 at 9:39:04 AM

I think part of the problem is that an issue severe enough to require demodding often involves a pattern of behaviour across the site, which is where it becomes useful to have an open discussion that lets lots of people chip in and compare notes. Unless it involves, say, real-life criminal behaviour unrelated to their mod activities, but even then, there's always the chance that one of your thousands of volunteers will remember how suspiciously detailed that UsefulNotes/HowToRobABank page they authored was...

What's precedent ever done for us?

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