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This thread is for discussing the following topics:

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We're aware that the Edit Banned thread has a Non-Indicative Name, due to it also covering non-editing suspensions. We're not sure whether the name for that thread can even be edited without breaking the special coding that keeps posting restricted to mods and suspended users, so we're leaving it alone for now, because better safe than sorry.
(Edited Mar 28 2024, adding bullet about OTC and amending layout a little)

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 11th 2024 at 3:20:25 AM

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#8926: Sep 11th 2023 at 8:38:59 AM

What magical theorem did you use to determine it wasn't transphobia?

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
Zuxtron Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel from Node 03 (On A Trope Odyssey)
#8927: Sep 11th 2023 at 8:39:15 AM

Again, this thread is not going away, y’all can still discuss mod actions here. We want major incidents, one that would require removal of a mod perhaps, reported to us.

The post that prompted this whole debacle was a simple discussion of a mod action, not a major incident which had anyone clamoring for a mod removal.

tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#8928: Sep 11th 2023 at 8:40:25 AM

Communication is key to any relationship. Doesn't matter whether it is platonic, romantic, working, etc. This is something I am working with as fairly new assistant manager, and something the admin need to work on.

If the admins want to be mods, they have to communicate with the mods.

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#8929: Sep 11th 2023 at 8:41:00 AM

The only thing I can say to provide some security and start to build trust is that we will be more open with the moderation team about serious decisions we make.

You have some serious work to do in order to patch up relations with the community.

You know what would be a good start? An apology from Kory. A real one. Not "I'm sorry you feel this way," not "I'm sorry I was perceived as rude." There has been egregious fault done here and I want him to acknowledge it and take actual responsibility for it. Nothing about that can be excused by "doing his job" and his attempts at deflecting responsibility have only served to dig his hole deeper.

Edited by Scraggle on Sep 11th 2023 at 9:42:00 AM

harryhenry It's either real or it's a dream Since: Jan, 2012
It's either real or it's a dream
#8930: Sep 11th 2023 at 8:42:00 AM

Why does the amount of edits they have matter? Are they good edits? Useful edits? Quality over quantity does (or at least should) matter after all, there's plenty of ban evaders and suspended users with many edits to their name.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#8931: Sep 11th 2023 at 8:42:22 AM

I understand that reasoning, but doesn't that set a precedent that users with more posts/activity get a better chance at a second chance merely for being more active? That would effectively mean we treat new users stricter than old ones.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
MewLettuceRush "The wilderness chose" from E (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
"The wilderness chose"
#8932: Sep 11th 2023 at 8:42:53 AM

Like, I feel this whole situation could have been prevented if the mod team was more transparent about it from the start.

Then again I believe you'll be more careful in the future.

Cheeky but charming.
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#8933: Sep 11th 2023 at 8:43:08 AM

The question this whole situation has raised is 'who manages the admins?'. Again, this is a massive collaborative volunteer project. Fostering a positive relationship (or any kind of relationship) with the legions of people keeping your site alive with free content is kind of important for a healthy wiki.

What's precedent ever done for us?
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#8934: Sep 11th 2023 at 8:43:50 AM

We noticed that a user with 15,000 edits was banned immediately and without warning.

I'm sorry, but that explanation is even more concerning. If that's all it takes to get a second look despite the incredibly clear and concerning behavior that is now being severely downplayed, then I genuinely do not know what to say or how we're supposed to trust the admins.

The fact that you investigated just because of the number of edits and have now made users feel genuinely unsafe on the site is a severe mistake, and pointing to the public apology that was in no way a genuine apology only makes the situation look even worse. The edit that got them suspended was not just harmful, it was actively transphobic, and it's clear that you didn't actively investigate the situation before unbanning him. There's no changing or downplaying that and asking us to not call a duck a duck just makes a huge breach of trust.

So, I ask again - what part of this situation is supposed to make us inclined to trust you?

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Sep 11th 2023 at 11:47:07 AM

Agentofchaos A God Am I from Somewhere in the Universe Since: Dec, 2021
#8935: Sep 11th 2023 at 8:44:21 AM

My issue is that a new admin came in, unilaterally unbounced a blatant transphobe (and that edit was transphobic, calling a trans woman a man "playing" as a woman is super transphobic) after they gave a complete non-apology and their response to people criticizing them is to change the rules to say people aren't allowed to anymore and suspend them.

And your response is basically just "please let's be civil about this" without addressing people's issues and trying to justify Kory's actions

"We'll meet again" | 🏳️‍⚧️
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#8936: Sep 11th 2023 at 8:44:54 AM

So if I make like thousands of null edits and I begged hard enough after getting banned it'll be a slap on the wrist?

tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#8937: Sep 11th 2023 at 8:45:40 AM

I understand that reasoning, but doesn't that set a precedent that users with more posts/activity get a better chance at a second chance merely for being more active? That would effectively mean we treat new users stricter than old ones.

And people like me who don't edit as often and are more active on the forums.

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#8938: Sep 11th 2023 at 8:46:13 AM

The admins have made it clear the user would be banned if he did it again, at least.

[up][up] I'm sorry, but that's a massive strawman. Clearly we are not talking about that sort of scam.

Edited by Redmess on Sep 11th 2023 at 5:46:50 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
harryhenry It's either real or it's a dream Since: Jan, 2012
It's either real or it's a dream
#8939: Sep 11th 2023 at 8:47:03 AM

Then there's the suggestion that they aren't a 60 year old Republican, but a younger English person. Is that true? If it is, that puts their entire apology into question in terms of earnesty. Can we trust someone like that?

Edited by harryhenry on Sep 12th 2023 at 3:47:29 AM

minseok42 A Self-inflicted Disaster from A Six-Tatami Room (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
A Self-inflicted Disaster
#8940: Sep 11th 2023 at 8:47:06 AM

Do people woth a lot of edits get to criticize Kory without getting thumped and the thread shut down?

"Enshittification truly is how platforms die"-Cory Doctorow
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#8941: Sep 11th 2023 at 8:48:23 AM

I enjoy that, after this guy was permanently banned for transphobia and unbanned, the promise of a permanent ban is meant to be reassuring. Why would this one stick?

Also I don't care if he's genuinely 60— my parents are 59 and 64 and they aren't locked into transphobia by their age

Edited by Libraryseraph on Sep 11th 2023 at 11:49:38 AM

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#8942: Sep 11th 2023 at 8:48:32 AM

[up][up] Yes. Clearly, we do.

[up][up][up] That is indeed an odd wrinkle to the story. Could you post a link to that post?

[up] Presumably, you don't cross the admins on a second chance. That would really be asking for it. And I think the issue is more that the lie makes his story unbelievable.

Edited by Redmess on Sep 11th 2023 at 5:51:22 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
harryhenry It's either real or it's a dream Since: Jan, 2012
It's either real or it's a dream
#8943: Sep 11th 2023 at 8:51:30 AM

[up] Here it is in question, from Very Melon earlier in the thread. I don't know if it's true, but that's why we should ask about it.

Edited by harryhenry on Sep 12th 2023 at 3:52:28 AM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#8944: Sep 11th 2023 at 8:52:34 AM

No, I meant the original post from Ag Prov.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
ultimate_life_form Since: Aug, 2019
#8945: Sep 11th 2023 at 8:54:45 AM

Looking into a ban just because someone had a lot of edits is very dumb and concerning, yeah. I think that point has been made.

I feel just saying that you'll communicate with the mods more isn't that reassuring when the people who distrust you the most are not them - it's us, the userbase. You need to communicate better with everyone, not just the mods, or else you will drive people away.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#8946: Sep 11th 2023 at 8:58:08 AM

By any chance, was this the first time the admins looked into forum bans? It does feel somewhat like a kneejerk reaction.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#8947: Sep 11th 2023 at 8:58:11 AM

It's not even just a case of driving people away, but letting serious issues fester because people do not trust the system to address or resolve them, and do not feel able to discuss them in public - or worse, come to believe that their own bad behaviour is just how things are done on TV Tropes. Forget Fighteer - that's how we get another Google Incident.

Let's be blunt, here - these changes do nothing except degrading the site's capacity to detect and address problems before they get out of hand. Introducing a single point of failure without transparency or accountability does nothing except shoring up the power of a narrow clique while making it harder for the site to run itself.

Edited by Iaculus on Sep 11th 2023 at 4:01:53 PM

What's precedent ever done for us?
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#8948: Sep 11th 2023 at 8:59:56 AM

But that's why they are now making efforts to be more closely involved. They are, at least, trying to fix that particular issue of letting issues fester.

And they don't have a time machine. They cannot travel to the past and fix previous mistakes, so we'll just have to judge them on their actions going forward instead.

Edited by Redmess on Sep 11th 2023 at 6:00:49 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
harryhenry It's either real or it's a dream Since: Jan, 2012
It's either real or it's a dream
#8949: Sep 11th 2023 at 9:02:12 AM

Kory reportedly grousing about the "pronoun police" in a previous incident also puts serious doubt into the agenda of his unbanning. Why are we letting him dictate what is or isn't a sincere apology for transphobia?

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#8950: Sep 11th 2023 at 9:02:18 AM

This decision has made people feel actively unsafe on this site. How are we supposed to just hand the people involved a mulligan and move forward with trust?


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