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Note: The thread currently has a limit of one post every two hours for non-mod users. Currently, this is hard-coded by the admins, but there are plans to give mods the ability to toggle it without admin intervention. After mods are given the ability to do that, the time limit may be further reduced or removed entirely.


This thread is for discussing the following topics:

  • Questions and clarifications about the site's rules and policies pertaining to wiki editing, forum posting, trope launching, and so on.
  • If you have an idea for a thread on another part of the forums but aren't sure if creating it would be allowed, feel free to ask here.

This thread is not for any of the following:

  • Reporting complaints or concerns about specific moderation decisions (e.g. suspensions and thumps). Report these directly to the admins via the contact form. Selecting "The Staff" sends your message to the admins only, without making it visible to moderators.
  • Queries about thumps applied to your own forum posts, including contesting the validity of a thump. Reply to the relevant moderator via PM for these matters.
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  • Queries about locked On-Topic Conversations (OTC) threads or banned discussion topics. OTC has its own moderation discussion thread here, and the latest statement on the locked US Politics thread and other banned OTC topics is here. Bluntly, when certain OTC threads and topics have repeatedly caused problems, we're not going to provide forum space to discuss them again until the moderation toolkit is equipped to handle those conversations.
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  • Crowner actions. Please use the holler function instead.
  • Discussion about changing or implementing policies. Please use Wiki Talk for that. (Asking whether it's OK to make a specific thread is acceptable; using this thread in place of such a thread is not.)
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Posts that use this thread in place of the sections listed in the bulleted list above are off-topic.
We're aware that the Edit Banned thread has a Non-Indicative Name, due to it also covering non-editing suspensions. We're not sure whether the name for that thread can even be edited without breaking the special coding that keeps posting restricted to mods and suspended users, so we're leaving it alone for now, because better safe than sorry.
(Edited Mar 28 2024, adding bullet about OTC and amending layout a little)

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 11th 2024 at 3:20:25 AM

GastonRabbit C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
C'est la vie. (he/him)
#8026: Mar 2nd 2023 at 5:12:22 AM

As another example of pointing out a rule without trying to assert authority over it, ATT reports for edit wars tend to simply point out that an edit war happened without demanding that a suspension be issued (which is how it should be). Granted, that'll usually happen anyway due to how strict the edit war policy is.

I got a rock for Halloween.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#8027: Mar 2nd 2023 at 10:02:02 AM

Scale can also matter a lot, when one person is doing it it’s mini-moding, when everyone does it you have a culture of self-policing.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#8028: Mar 3rd 2023 at 9:29:27 AM

A policy question rather than a specific appeal -

I know a few suspended tropers have recently been advised that their editing suspension will remain as the mods would like to see them constructively interact with other users via forums, then appeal in a few months time (examples here).

That seems a really clear way to position it.

Looking further back, guidance hasn't always been that clear, and I know we have some banned tropers who are actively doing much the same thing on forums etc. (following mod guidance), but weren't given any such specific instruction as to when/if they could return and appeal on the thread - or if mods would be monitoring and would proactively tell them when/if they could appeal.

Combined with the blunt "you'll be bounced if you keep asking" statements that were sometimes made when such tropers came back too soon, that doesn't seem to give them a clear path forward.

Is there any mod appetite for a standard rule on this - e.g. if it wasn't positioned as a final, no more appeals ever, permanent ban, is it acceptable for a banned user who's actively contributing to other parts of the site to revisit the thread every six months (for example) to get a mod view on their progress, without fear that they'll be risking a bounce by asking?

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#8029: Mar 3rd 2023 at 10:56:13 AM

We do not actively monitor them. The intent is for them to come back when they feel they have contributed a good bit. Sometimes we'll give a timeframe, sometimes we won't. But we only do a "review" when they come post again.

Statements like "You'll be bounced if you keep asking" are usually for naggy people with permanent bans. They are not usually intended for users under this sort of "probation", unless we can see that they're very obviously not doing what we asked.

Edited by Synchronicity on Mar 3rd 2023 at 12:57:37 PM

Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#8030: Mar 4th 2023 at 8:45:23 AM

[up] That seems fair.

And anyone who's not certain which suspension category they're in should get confirmation once they return to the thread and receive that mod response.

All sounds reasonable. Thanks for clarifying!

Edited by Mrph1 on Mar 4th 2023 at 4:45:57 PM

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#8031: Mar 4th 2023 at 10:10:04 AM

Not gonna lie, I have no idea why my post here got thumped. It was a video of a meme from Arthur (the "go on the internet and tell lies" meme) as a lighthearted response to to an above comment, but it got thumped for rudeness. I genuinely was not trying to be rude, just a bit silly.

GastonRabbit C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
C'est la vie. (he/him)
#8032: Mar 4th 2023 at 10:23:34 AM

[up]It wasn't thumped for rudeness (which is why the thump message doesn't have the "Wow. That was rude." text). It was thumped because video-only posts aren't allowed.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 4th 2023 at 12:24:55 PM

I got a rock for Halloween.
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#8033: Mar 4th 2023 at 10:24:49 AM

Oh. I don't know why I thought rudeness.

Well that makes it hard to use that video on this site then.

AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#8034: Mar 4th 2023 at 10:30:55 AM

You just have to explain what is in the video. I know that kills the joke but maybe such jokes are indeed not allowed.

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#8035: Mar 4th 2023 at 10:36:18 AM

If you can't post a video without explaining the joke by design... it's best to not post the video.

You could also spoiler/folder the text for context, so it doesn't entirely ruin the joke, but it has to have context either way.

Shadow?
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#8036: Mar 4th 2023 at 12:13:37 PM

Yeah, people who can’t view a video should still be able to understand your post.

It’s easy enough, you can post a clip and put afterwards “The above clip show [show] sums it up rather well for me”.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
alnair20aug93 🍊orange fursona🧡 from 🐾Furrypines 🇵🇭 (Long Runner) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
🍊orange fursona🧡
#8037: Mar 4th 2023 at 8:24:42 PM

About AI and plagiarism, is there a rule about copying stuff from AI-based writing, using AI upon writing descriptions and examples, about blatantly declaring it was written from AI, and on AI-assisted writing to fix grammar?

ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔|I DO COMMISSIONS|ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔
MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
#8038: Mar 4th 2023 at 8:44:21 PM

There's no specific rule on that but when in doubt, it always best to try to write your own descriptions. I am not sure how AI is going to help anyone write coherent examples or work descriptions in the first place.

Macron's notes
Karxrida from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
#8039: Mar 4th 2023 at 8:53:39 PM

I don't think an AI will be able to properly understand context to avoid ZCEs.

Also, Grammarly and Microsoft Word already exist if you want grammar checks.

Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#8040: Mar 4th 2023 at 11:45:15 PM

Asking Chat GPT to summarize the plot of a movie and preset it as a trope list is very possible, but as we've already discussed with "Proceduraly-generated works and copyright", we can't moderate AI involement until it becomes an issue for the wiki or there's a relevant US law.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#8041: Mar 5th 2023 at 3:20:59 AM

There isn't a law yet, but there may be one soon enough. The main problems are that the AI doesn't tell you where it got its text from (so it could well be quoting someone without telling you, even if it is distorted), and that it is, in essence, always quoting things, however garbled. It has to get its information somewhere, after all.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Noaqiyeum we must dissent (it/they) from across the gulf of space (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
we must dissent (it/they)
#8042: Mar 5th 2023 at 3:38:10 AM

Most of the time that's comparable to saying that this thread has been plagiarising the Oxford English Dictionary.

ERROR: The current state of the world is unacceptable. Save anyway? YES/NO
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#8043: Mar 5th 2023 at 3:47:37 AM

Sure, but then you get cases like providing a plot summary for a book. Chat GPT can't really read and understand a book, much less summarize it, so it probably first tries to find an existing summary and use that. I'm not sure what happens if it can't find one, but from my understanding, it probably just tries to make something up.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#8044: Mar 5th 2023 at 4:03:07 AM

That'd be a question for lawyers and not for moderators.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#8045: Mar 5th 2023 at 4:12:18 AM

Of course, but the question for moderators is whether it is a good idea to allow these sort of summaries that could well constitute plagiarism, since wo do have rules against that.

After all, we are not allowed to just pull entire blocks of text from Wikipedia, so that should mean that an AI generated text that does the same should not be allowed either.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#8046: Mar 5th 2023 at 7:37:33 AM

I think we need a bit more information on how Chat GPT writes its text; does it copy it from anywhere? As far as I can see, there isn't any legal precedent on the copyright status of Chat GPT text itself, but most of what I am seeing is that its output probably isn't copyrighted.

Its accuracy is a concern, though.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#8047: Mar 5th 2023 at 8:09:10 AM

Well, that "probably" is the problem, right? It's not really settled yet.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#8048: Mar 5th 2023 at 10:00:28 AM

My opinion is that if you have to rely on an AI program to write a synopsis of a work, you probably shouldn't even bother doing it in the first place. It just screams laziness to me. And if someone is lazy enough to not actually write down a few paragraphs, they're probably too lazy to properly check for errors in whatever the AI has spat out.

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#8049: Mar 5th 2023 at 10:11:34 AM

"Probably" just means we don't need to do anything about whether it copies or not till we know for sure. We don't jump the gun on things. Either we know it does, or it's not a problem.

Accuracy on the other hand is a completely different problem and story, making it unfeasible for this wiki and something to question.

Legality issues aren't proven to exist right now, so it's kind of silly to worry about them. Sure, if they come up, we can revise our rules. But we have more concrete stuff to look at it, not something outright pending.

Oh, yeah, I remember someone using Chat GPT a bit back. While it got bits and pieces rihgt, it had tons of completely different information. So while it was only a week ago, it is extremely inaccurate.

Edited by Irene on Mar 5th 2023 at 12:19:20 PM

Shadow?
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#8050: Mar 5th 2023 at 10:23:52 AM

Okay, so there are no issues with plagiarism, but we should still strongly recommend against it, then?

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times

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