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Note: The thread currently has a limit of one post every two hours for non-mod users. Currently, this is hard-coded by the admins, but there are plans to give mods the ability to toggle it without admin intervention. After mods are given the ability to do that, the time limit may be further reduced or removed entirely.


This thread is for discussing the following topics:

  • Questions and clarifications about the site's rules and policies pertaining to wiki editing, forum posting, trope launching, and so on.
  • If you have an idea for a thread on another part of the forums but aren't sure if creating it would be allowed, feel free to ask here.

This thread is not for any of the following:

  • Reporting complaints or concerns about specific moderation decisions (e.g. suspensions and thumps). Report these directly to the admins via the contact form. Selecting "The Staff" sends your message to the admins only, without making it visible to moderators.
  • Queries about thumps applied to your own forum posts, including contesting the validity of a thump. Reply to the relevant moderator via PM for these matters.
  • Ban appeals (use the "Edit Banned" thread in this forum).
  • Reporting problems or requesting moderator action in the wiki or forums (use Ask The Tropers or Hollersnote  or specialized threads such as "Locked Pages").
  • Queries about locked On-Topic Conversations (OTC) threads or banned discussion topics. OTC has its own moderation discussion thread here, and the latest statement on the locked US Politics thread and other banned OTC topics is here. Bluntly, when certain OTC threads and topics have repeatedly caused problems, we're not going to provide forum space to discuss them again until the moderation toolkit is equipped to handle those conversations.
  • Cut List challenges and queries (they have their own thread here).
  • Requests for changes to the site's code or discussion about such changes, as mods cannot change the code; only the admins can do that. Please direct tech requests to Query Bugs or Tech Wishlist (for bug reports and suggestions for feature additions/changes, respectively), and take other tech-related discussion to the Changelog thread.
  • Crowner actions. Please use the holler function instead.
  • Discussion about changing or implementing policies. Please use Wiki Talk for that. (Asking whether it's OK to make a specific thread is acceptable; using this thread in place of such a thread is not.)
  • Asking about the whereabouts of inactive mods (or other inactive users) before they return, if they return at all. Use the Absent people thread for discussing inactive users.

Posts that use this thread in place of the sections listed in the bulleted list above are off-topic.
We're aware that the Edit Banned thread has a Non-Indicative Name, due to it also covering non-editing suspensions. We're not sure whether the name for that thread can even be edited without breaking the special coding that keeps posting restricted to mods and suspended users, so we're leaving it alone for now, because better safe than sorry.
(Edited Mar 28 2024, adding bullet about OTC and amending layout a little)

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 11th 2024 at 3:20:25 AM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#7826: Jan 11th 2023 at 7:35:08 AM

Late, but I approve of the updated mod rules, and I'm satisfied by the apologies.

And I agree that Fighteer subjecting himself to the Edit Banned thread before he can regain forum posting privileges would be a good first test of his ability to reform.

Edited by AlleyOop on Jan 11th 2023 at 7:35:57 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#7827: Jan 11th 2023 at 7:44:24 AM

I should probably not that suspensions would work differently on mods than users since mods can easily (un)suspend themselves so I guess this would be more based on self discipline.

I think it could work if you make it a rule that a mod unsuspending themself will be treated as equivalent to a regular user ban-evading by creating another account.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#7828: Jan 11th 2023 at 7:52:03 AM

I would quite concur with that. Unsuspending oneself is an abuse of power defined and should show the mod is no longer to be trusted as a moderator.

I would be fine with Fighteer going to the Edit banned thread. My ultimate thought on this is I think it's problematic to treat it as a first offense because it went on so long and continuously. However, it would be unfair to say Fighteer did nothing positive in his role. He did. Him apologizing, showing the capacity for change and being a positive force would be better.

But no more insults, no more bullying, no more bigotry. It doesn't sit well with me that for so many years the face of the moderators and the site was a 30-40 + year old man who got a sadistic kick from bullying and insulting people much younger than him in the Edit Banned thread. That needs to end, fully. No smirking how much he likes banning people, no telling users to "shut the hell up and let the adults talk."

Zero-tolerance means zero-tolerance. if he backslides, the mods need to vow that what Septimus said is true: one slip up and his modship ends.

MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
#7829: Jan 11th 2023 at 8:29:21 AM

I think if everything was put into a three strike system it would go like this (of course this depends on severity :

  • First level —Thumps/Verbal warns
  • Second level—Suspension
  • Third level—Demodding

We have been past warnings a long time ago and to be honest if a regular user had as many warnings/thumps Fighteer did...they probably wouldn't be here anymore or would at least have 1 suspension under their belt.

So, since we just set up actual rules of conduct and don't want to jump straight to demodding Personally speaking, Fighteer would be on the same level as someone who got a second suspension for the same offense—-on their last chance.

Also, yes, there will be zero tolerance for Fighteer after this.

Edited by MacronNotes on Jan 11th 2023 at 11:43:22 AM

Macron's notes
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#7831: Jan 11th 2023 at 8:48:40 AM

That is entirely reasonable from where I'm sitting. Both from a rule and implementation perspective. Speaking only for me, I'm comfortable with that being the case here.

I agree with Alley he should post in the Edit-Banned thread and make an apology, but I'm comfortable with what you're proposing.

Likewise, we'll see when Crazy posts.

GastonRabbit C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
C'est la vie. (he/him)
#7832: Jan 11th 2023 at 9:24:38 AM

[up][up][up]I agree with this approach.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 11th 2023 at 11:25:10 AM

I got a rock for Halloween.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#7833: Jan 11th 2023 at 9:27:54 AM

That sounds good. And yes, giving Fighteer one last chance while treating him as the equivalent of a repeat violator seems only fair.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#7834: Jan 11th 2023 at 10:18:26 AM

Will also be saying thanks from the mods for giving those apologies, even if personally I wasn't the one pushing for them. The important thing from all of this are the updated and visible mod rules and Fighteer being treated as a repeat offender on his last chance.

TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#7836: Jan 11th 2023 at 12:58:05 PM

Thank you to the mods on their apology. I like the the proposed 3 strike rule.

MsOranjeDiscoDancer 2much2furious from the Saja Boys' last performance! Since: Aug, 2022 Relationship Status: Will you go out with me to the End?
2much2furious
#7837: Jan 11th 2023 at 1:55:58 PM

slighty based. three strikes is good because it holds the mods to the same standard, obv

but

still sucks we had to get to this point. esp after ninjacrat and that one guy who used to be FE and Fighteer's friend and got in a public spat that ended in them trying to scrub the wiki of said friend though

and, yanno, the entire SA goon swarm

only thing id like to add are more mod actions on anyone trying to minimod tbh

edit:

"One of the things I liked about the Fast Eddie era"

as others pointed out youd still get perma'd or bounced because you slightly said something against him. also it is 2023 and we really do not need more admins throwing internet temper tantrums and people saying 'omg admin is based for taking charge', look at elon musk

Edited by MsOranjeDiscoDancer on Jan 11th 2023 at 1:58:26 AM

i may be dead inside but at least i have Mystery :,)
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#7838: Jan 11th 2023 at 2:45:10 PM

I think a 2500 post discussion on mod conduct is certainly worth taking up in the Wiki timeline.

And good job on the rules of conduct, they look pretty solid so far!

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#7839: Jan 11th 2023 at 3:01:30 PM

I don't honestly care if Fighteer apologies in this thread or appeals myself.

Either way, as long as it gets resolved well. smile

Shadow?
nombretomado (Season 1) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#7840: Jan 11th 2023 at 4:39:40 PM

Wishing the best to the mod team for these changes.[tup]

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#7841: Jan 11th 2023 at 6:48:34 PM

I like the mod guidelines; I think they're a good starting point for how things move forward. I know mistakes were made in the mod responses to the thread at times, but I think that's understandable given that the hostility in the thread probably made you all feel like you were under siege; I know I didn't like posting to this thread, and I wasn't even the target. So, thank you for seeing it through to create a set of public rules.

I do have one possible ask(?), for the idea that a mod can technically unsuspend themselves from an area they're banned from.

If at any stage a mod does get banned, is it possible to make it clear somewhere that "Mod X has been banned from Y Location until they satisfactorily appeal that ban in the Edit/Ban thread" (or something along those lines)?

My thinking for this is just in case any of us see a mod in an area we heard they're banned from. It'll be clear (because there's a post in the EB thread) what their suspension is and whether they're breaking it. If we see that kind of circumvention, but perhaps no mods have at that point, we can holler it, knowing that we're doing the right thing. It'll also help ensure that we don't mistakenly holler a mod whose suspension has now been lifted.

If that doesn't make sense, I'm thinking in terms of what currently happens in the EB when a ban-evader is bounced. Whether or not that troper ever posted to the EB thread, mods still make an announcement that X troper is a ban-evader and has been bounced. If we have a similar post saying "X Mod is currently suspended for Y reason", we will then have the entire suspension cycle in the EB thread (start, appeal, conclusion) instead of just the appeal and conclusion. Hopefully, that would make it clear to all of us when the suspension begins and ends so no mistakes are made by any of us (users and mods alike).

Edited by Wyldchyld on Jan 11th 2023 at 3:02:30 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
megagutsman Maverick Hunter. from Dragon Turtle MK.1. (Seven Years' War) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Maverick Hunter.
#7842: Jan 11th 2023 at 7:11:07 PM

Maybe they could post something like that either here and/or in EB?.

Acebrock He/Him from So-Cal Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: My elf kissing days are over
He/Him
#7843: Jan 12th 2023 at 12:17:03 AM

"One of the things I liked about the Fast Eddie era"

as others pointed out youd still get perma'd or bounced because you slightly said something against him. also it is 2023 and we really do not need more admins throwing internet temper tantrums and people saying 'omg admin is based for taking charge', look at elon musk

You take the good with the bad, in the end. While I do think Eddie was a net positive, that doesn't excuse the stupid shit he did that hurt the site or pissed people off for no good reason. I'd just rather acknowledge both aspects.

TBF, I really didn't interact with Eddie, and in a lot of cases was in full agreement with him (nuking the pornographic works and overly creepy tropes (Innocent Panties *shudder*), the aforementioned forced clarification of trope names), and he could be made to back down.

Anyway, this isn't about Eddie, and I like what the mods have proposed as far as an internal rules/punisment system.

My troper wall
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#7844: Jan 12th 2023 at 2:52:56 AM

I think it would make more sense to announce mod suspensions in this thread.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#7845: Jan 12th 2023 at 3:15:08 AM

Speaking of announcing, worth linking to this post in ATT?

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#7846: Jan 12th 2023 at 7:30:03 AM

Fast Eddie expressly was above the rules, including "Don't be a dick". He'd made that very clear on multiple occasions.

Anyway, I've mostly been staying out of this discussion but I approve of the result. The thing is, permanent sanctions against Fighteer aren't appropriate because it is his first strike, because the mods haven't suspended him before. That's on the mod team as a whole (and despite what some of us may want, if the mod team as a whole make an error, you can't expect them to punish themselves - just to try to do better next time). Going from zero to permaban on a persistent problem without employing intermediate sanctions is not good moderation.

I do think it's appropriate for him to be on zero-tolerance ice, though. I mean, you can add "rare third chance" to the Drinking Game, since the mods actually give out a lot of third chances, but he knows the score and he's been given too much leeway. As for having him post in Edit Banned on his return...eh. I understand why we would, especially from a transparency standpoint, but it feels a bit too much like political theater to me.

Edited by Ramidel on Jan 12th 2023 at 6:31:37 AM

MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
#7847: Jan 12th 2023 at 7:57:27 AM

I think mod suspensions would be announced here.

As for an Ask The Tropers query regarding the mod code, I am not opposed to that.

Macron's notes
MsOranjeDiscoDancer 2much2furious from the Saja Boys' last performance! Since: Aug, 2022 Relationship Status: Will you go out with me to the End?
2much2furious
#7848: Jan 12th 2023 at 8:08:37 AM

"You take the good with the bad, in the end."

eh, i dont think he did nearly enough, esp with the goon swarm; and it was clear there was a lot of canaries who had to suffer in a coal mine by incurring FE's wrath until they could convince him

anyway, given that there are a bunch of people who use ATT but not this, definitely put in an ATT announcement

i may be dead inside but at least i have Mystery :,)
badtothebaritone (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: Snooping as usual
#7849: Jan 12th 2023 at 11:33:13 AM

[down] Got it. Ignore this.

Edited by badtothebaritone on Jan 12th 2023 at 1:55:47 PM

Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#7850: Jan 12th 2023 at 11:54:58 AM

[up] I see no relevance between mod rules and Administrivia/, aside Administrivia.Know The Staff which already has a note about this.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

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