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Note: The thread currently has a limit of one post every two hours for non-mod users. Currently, this is hard-coded by the admins, but there are plans to give mods the ability to toggle it without admin intervention. After mods are given the ability to do that, the time limit may be further reduced or removed entirely.


This thread is for discussing the following topics:

  • Questions and clarifications about the site's rules and policies pertaining to wiki editing, forum posting, trope launching, and so on.
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We're aware that the Edit Banned thread has a Non-Indicative Name, due to it also covering non-editing suspensions. We're not sure whether the name for that thread can even be edited without breaking the special coding that keeps posting restricted to mods and suspended users, so we're leaving it alone for now, because better safe than sorry.
(Edited Mar 28 2024, adding bullet about OTC and amending layout a little)

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 11th 2024 at 3:20:25 AM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#7726: Jan 10th 2023 at 11:21:43 AM

I can see that point. Personally, though I would disagree with the effectiveness of time bans. Humans by the nature tend to be extremely impatient especially when it comes to stuff they want to do. People getting a timed banned and seeing what happens when the break certain rules it will encourage them to not do it again so they don't have to wait in between edits again.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#7727: Jan 10th 2023 at 11:22:59 AM

I disagree, as a kid it just encouraged me to make a new account. Ban evasion stats would skyrocket.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#7728: Jan 10th 2023 at 11:24:29 AM

Admittedly, there have been times I think that the door has been slammed shut too soon, or open again too early. But hey, that's more my personal preference than anything that actively needs fixing. But ultimately I'd rather people who have major issues with edit warring, Single-Issue Wonk, etc be pulled in to fix things properly. Usually, it isn't hard to fix things or make assurances.

Things like racism, bigotry, etc. are things I'm much more comfortable with the mod team slamming the doors on people for rather than instituting a timed system. The way Nombre handled Madfoot was superb, and I'll give a shoutout to Fighteer for him treating numerous racists that way. Even Fast Eddie, as much as I don't miss him, slammed the ban hammer down on a guy who publicly prayed on the forum an LGBT troper would renounce homosexuality and leave her wife. That's the kinda zero tolerance stuff we should want from a mod team.

One thing I will also compliment them on is the less that Fighteer has been involved in the EB thread, the smoother it seems to go. There is FAR less nastiness than condescension and it never sat right to me how much a 30-40+ year old man seemed to delight in how he treated people much younger than him.

Timed bans do nothing to fix an issue at its core, which is what suspensions aim to do. And frankly, they'd just give cover to....less than great people.

Edited by Lightysnake on Jan 10th 2023 at 11:25:19 AM

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#7729: Jan 10th 2023 at 11:24:31 AM

[up][up]Same - I got suspended early on in my time here cause of formatting and indentation issues and the suspension system worked great for me. It actually solves the problem rather than just delaying it

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Jan 10th 2023 at 2:25:22 PM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#7730: Jan 10th 2023 at 11:26:05 AM

This is something I will again praise Septimus on: when he handles suspensions on technical matters, he is extremely effective in helping people to understand formatting issues, indentation, etc.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#7731: Jan 10th 2023 at 11:27:15 AM

Also being able to see the edit-banned thread gives you a general idea of the rules of the site. I learned to keep my spelling and grammar well, indentation, etc. From their.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#7732: Jan 10th 2023 at 11:28:14 AM

I mean there are some things that would still result in an immediate permanent ban, such as ban evasion, hate speech and others. I am mostly talking about the stuff that doesn't usually result in permanent suspensions anyway, like indentation.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#7733: Jan 10th 2023 at 11:31:06 AM

I mean, yeah. My point is that you're right that people are impatient — some people can't even wait a few days for a mod response without resorting to evasion, and that's with the current appeal system. So you can bet that people who get a timed suspension will eventually get bored and ban evade, especially if during that time they don't get contact with the mods and don't get to understand where they went wrong. It'd either encourage people to just wait it out without learning anything, or it'd just result in evasion.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 10th 2023 at 2:31:24 PM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#7734: Jan 10th 2023 at 11:32:30 AM

I'm totally fine with a ban until you show you've fixed the issue. It's just a matter of less "You really can't do that, you stupid child?" And more "Here's how you fix the problem"

themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#7735: Jan 10th 2023 at 11:35:54 AM

Yeah I agree that Fighteer was good at keeping bigots out. I remember one guy got suspended for complaining about "forced diversity" in an edit—he didn't last much longer. (I think his attempt at an appeal got thumped—IIRC he used a homophobic slur.)

That kind of behavior is absolutely worthy of scorn and condemnation. (I'm really sorry as well Lighty that you and whoever else was there at the time had to deal with some guy praying someone would stop being gay on the forums—that's awful to hear, especially as a left-wing Christian who is strongly pro-LGBTQIA+ myself.)

It's the more contentious cases that can become problems—and that's what I see we're trying to address, which I agree with.

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#7736: Jan 10th 2023 at 11:39:06 AM

[up][up][up] There is one factor that I haven't really brought up. With timed bans people will know how much longer they have until they are unbanned, with our current system they have no idea.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#7737: Jan 10th 2023 at 11:43:11 AM

Yeah, because the current system puts an onus on them to improve, which cuts down recidivism

dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#7738: Jan 10th 2023 at 11:43:29 AM

If you did have timed banned you'd have to add that a pm be sent when it happens so they at least know why. The number of people who turn up at EB clueless seems high.

In fact it might be worth doing that anyway. A blurb of what they did and to go to EB.

Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#7739: Jan 10th 2023 at 11:43:59 AM

[up] [up][up]I'd be all for a ban system that really clearly says "You are banned indefinitely - you need to talk to us before it's lifted", as EB is full of tropers who don't seem to understand that bit. But not in favor of timed bans, for the reasons mentioned above.

Edited by Mrph1 on Jan 10th 2023 at 7:44:18 PM

themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#7740: Jan 10th 2023 at 11:44:27 AM

I've wondered myself for a while if it's a good idea to PM people when they get suspended and direct them to the EB thread. Many, many people there complain about not knowing they were suspended (or what for) until finding out the hard way.

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#7741: Jan 10th 2023 at 11:45:37 AM

Wouldn't work if you're PM suspended, tho tongue

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#7742: Jan 10th 2023 at 11:45:58 AM

[up] Good point. Something similar, perhaps.

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
dcutter2 Since: Sep, 2013
#7743: Jan 10th 2023 at 11:52:55 AM

Obviously it's an impossible thing that would require admin coding but I see no reason a PM ban should prevent you reading P Ms rather than just stop you sending them.

MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
#7744: Jan 10th 2023 at 12:09:48 PM

When someone gets suspended from a part of the site, the message gives them a link to What to Do If You Are Suspended. I think it would be preferable if it also gave you a link to the forums but eh.

As for P Ming people about their suspension, I think there's the concern that people would think that they can appeal their ban via P Ms (which is something some people try to do even when they are told that we don't handle suspensions that way).

An automated PM wouldn't be bad but that's tech stuff.

Edited by MacronNotes on Jan 10th 2023 at 3:10:22 PM

Macron's notes
ChloeJessica Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
#7745: Jan 10th 2023 at 12:11:13 PM

that's been brought up before and the official response is that it's an admin level fix and since it would only help people who have broken the rules it's not a high priority.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#7746: Jan 10th 2023 at 12:31:39 PM

Agreed. Of all the critiques I've had, the current ban system isn't one of them.

Mrph1 he/him from Mercia (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: This is not my beautiful wife!
he/him
#7747: Jan 10th 2023 at 12:35:51 PM

[up] Just to add to that - I also think the EB thread provides some much needed transparency on ban decisions and expectations, as covered much earlier in this thread. Which we wouldn't get on a timed ban system.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#7748: Jan 10th 2023 at 12:49:57 PM

Okay, I have a question: how is it that the mods don't know who added the "glass houses" comment? Just as an example, how is it physically possible that the mods who have talked about it have said they don't know who added that comment?

Aren't all mod decisions made in mod-only forum threads? Wouldn't there be a written record of every single mod who had input on that post? I'm asking because I genuinely don't know how the system works, but that's what I've heard. Also, is it against the rules to just, like, copy-paste excerpts from those mod-only threads?

We've heard several individual mods now deflecting the blame on bad segments of "mod collective posts" on the "other mods" without any clarification of which mods are responsible. But, like, if all mod decisions are made in forum threads, surely it's possible for the mod in question to just go back through the thread, find the post responsible for that bad segment, and call-out the mod who did make that post.

If a mod would like us to believe that they weren't responsible for a bad segment in a mod post that they made public, it shouldn't be impossible for them to provide proof by copy-pasting their dissenting opinion from the mod thread, then copy-paste the post made by the mod who was responsible for that segment.

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#7749: Jan 10th 2023 at 1:38:31 PM

I don't want to distract from pushover too much but isn't there already a minimum time tropers have to be suspended before they can have the suspension lifted? I recall having to wait at least a week before I could appeal my edit suspension a few years ago.

[down]Huh, I must be remembering wrong then.

Edited by papyru30 on Jan 10th 2023 at 2:54:29 AM

Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#7750: Jan 10th 2023 at 1:43:00 PM

No? In rare cases (and before the bunch response system) some are released from EB the same day if they know what they were suspended for and address it right away. It's whenever a mod is free to chat.

Edited by Amonimus on Jan 10th 2023 at 12:43:36 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

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