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(Edited Mar 28 2024, adding bullet about OTC and amending layout a little)
Edited by Mrph1 on Mar 29th 2024 at 10:55:20 AM
Discarded and Feeling Blue
Hey, I'm in total agreement that his little line at the end was uncalled for and inflammatory, though this is always the way it goes when Fighteer steps in to argue for himself: He throws in unnecessary barbs and riles people up while playing victim. He even did it earlier in the post Lighty keeps referencing.
The thing that I think is worth noting, though, is that because this is his modus operandi, I can only assume that it is his best effort at defending himself. He pulls an Uno Reverse and sympathy baits, or half-apologizes before defending himself again. I can't see it as a tactic to incite an argument because it's what always seems to happen... Which is why I just took it as a basic attempt at self-defense.
A really really bad attempt at self-defense, mind, but I don't know if it runs any deeper than that. The cynical part of me says it does, because I can only assume good faith for so long before it just becomes naive, but... yeah.
I mean, there's no real way around it. He's in the wrong. There's not a lot of ways he really can defend himself without resorting to trying to spin the conversation back on us... But I'm not sure if it's malice so much as him grasping at straws or trying to convince people to lay off.
Either way: Terrible take is terrible and we all agree that what he said is ridiculous.
Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 22nd 2022 at 6:41:30 AM
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
But that's worse. That's genuinely worse, War.
Discarded and Feeling Blue
Yeah, I won't argue with you on that. I'm not defending anything here, moreso than trying to clarify what I mean when I said he's "defending himself".
Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 22nd 2022 at 6:43:27 AM
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
She/Her Pronouns
It is worse. Its also a perfectly natural, even understandable, reaction to bruised ego and, let us be clear, pretty much everyone talking about how terrible he's been. I know I'd probably break if I was faced with that much directed vitriol.
The issue is, people aren't mad for no reason. Actually, if no one else I've been not linking every incident where he crossed a line with me or someone else precisely because I'm not aiming to dredge up old grievances. The issue is, its not all past history but a pattern, and despite this being very pointed and direct it comes from a collective place of hurt. So everyone else can't back down...Fighteer has to be the one to do so.
If everyone here was really trying to dredge up old grievances out of a grudge, this conversation would likely be significantly more pointed even than it is now.
Edited by AzurePaladin on Dec 22nd 2022 at 6:46:44 AM
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Discarded and Feeling Blue
If he could muster up the courage to apologize and admit to his wrong doing, we wouldn't be here right now, I think. Pride's a sin for a reason.
And to be clear I'm not all saying we should back down. Far from it. Fighteer's attempt at a defense only makes him look worse and there's absolutely no reason to stop, especially not now while he essentially just gave us ammo while trying to get us away from him.
Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 22nd 2022 at 6:47:12 AM
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
It does come off as tone deaf to try and argue that going through a member's post history when reviewing their behavior is wrong in any way. I'm fairly certain that every mod does a little bit of that when people wind up in the edit banned thread to determine how much of a problem it is.
Discarded and Feeling Blue
Literally... It's also a tactic people use all the time on ATT if certain users have a history of acting up. Gathering evidence and sharing receipts is just what you do if you're trying to build a case against someone or correct a pattern of wrongdoing.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
The Moron
I myself do that all the time and I’ve even gotten outright thanked for it by mods
She/Her Pronouns
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
x4: I know you weren't, more just working everything through..."out loud" so to speak. Capture the tone and the reasoning.
Discarded and Feeling Blue
Fair enough. We're all pretty much on the same page I think but it can get confusing at times.
Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 22nd 2022 at 6:54:13 AM
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
For what it's worth, I did holler Fighteer's post and specified that it was the last comment being inflammatory that as unhelpful as we are on page 31 of discussing him.
Caesar
Yeah, Fighteer is acting as if behavior that is typical for Edit Banned or ATT is now suddenly "demeaning" when turned against him. The proverbial "shoe" is on the other foot in this situation... it's just that Fighteer is the one used to wearing it and kicking others, and he now seems a bit averse to the idea of being on the receiving end.
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!
Lost in Space
So, one more post on this matter. I'm making it pink so it stands out, not because I'm going rogue.
A moderator has to be reactive; that is, they have to come into existing incidents of bad behavior and sort them out. I am often abrasive and direct when this sort of thing happens, and this is completely intentional. Suggesting that "a user would be banned for the same behavior" is missing the point. In these cases, I am acting as a moderator. Moderators do not have the same rules because they cannot.
It is reasonable to bring up my interactions with other users when not acting in my capacity as a moderator. That's what started this, after all. However, if this is about, "Fighteer is mean to people when he posts with the mod hat," that is both intentional and part of the job. Yes, different people may use different tones in that role, and I have chosen mine.
If people are nervous about the Big Bad Fighteer coming down on them, good. That's the point. Every team needs a closer, as it were, one who can take the hits and say what's needed. I am that person for this team. I have whole hate clubs on obscure websites devoted to attacking me, made up of bigots and trolls that I've banned; do you think I'm any stranger to this sort of thing?
I'm not saying I'm above criticism, but that there is a necessary separation between my moderation role and my use of the site as any other troper. What I mean about "the shoe on the other foot" is that nobody can survive having everything they've ever done dug up and used against them. Picture yourselves in my position, as a moderator, and consider how you'd feel.
Where I have been in the wrong is when I have threatened to use my role to enforce my position in situations that have nothing to do with moderation. That's inappropriate, I've apologized for it, and I have promised not to do it again. I would say that I have made good on that promise.
My weakness, whatever you call it, is that I too frequently assume intellectual dishonesty. Call it cynicism, call it internalized anger, whatever you want. I see the bad-faith arguments everywhere I go and project them onto other people. This has nothing to do with anyone's sexual identity or race or religion or anything else. There are no "privileged identities" that are immune to bias, my own included.
This incident has clarified things in my mind. I'll be completely honest: I need time off and have needed it for a long time. The burnout is real after twelve years. The rest of the moderators are probably going to announce something soon; I don't know exactly when. But for my part, I'm going to retire from the site for a while. I can't function when I'm seething with anger, whether it's my fault or someone else's. I'm doing this for my own well-being.
After this post I'm closing all TV Tropes-related tabs on my browser and will be accessible only via the moderation chat. I'm going to try to avoid the temptation to peek in on the discussion. It's like picking at a scab. I have no respect for people who loudly proclaim that they're quitting and then keep coming back.
That's it. See everyone in a while.
Edited by Fighteer on Dec 22nd 2022 at 6:56:40 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
he/him
[Superseded by Fighteer's last post, which appeared while I was writing this one]
[Nothing to see here]
Edited by Mrph1 on Dec 22nd 2022 at 11:59:46 AM
I think there's a difference between people being afraid of you because they know you'll discipline them if they break the rules, and people being afraid of you because they feel like you have a poor attitude and are afraid of what you'll do to them if they disagree with you or criticize your arguments or attitude. The latter is what people have been complaining about, not the former.
I don't think anyone is under the illusion that this is at all a pleasant experience for someone to go through, but I think what I said before stands. This isn't about making you feel bad for no reason dude. I think it's genuinely important that you understand the only reason people are doing that is that they see the same problems keep showing up over and over.
And also dude, no offense, but again, this isn't our first rodeo. This is like what, the fourth incident in the last 2 years or so if I'm not mistaken (covid has destroyed my sense of time)? It's not like the complaints people are making here are new. If you had genuinely changed the way you interact with people on the forum for the better this would not have happened this many times by now.
Edited by Draghinazzo on Dec 22nd 2022 at 9:12:51 AM
In Edit Banned, we've seen them try to implement a much friendlier and kinder atmosphere.
I have no sympathy for bigots, white supremacists, antisemites, LGBT-phobes etc. that I have seen banned and treated with derision. I have seen people who aren't that be treated harsher than they deserved. This site should not be a place for any bigots and racists, but that's not the only issue.
Edited by Lightysnake on Dec 22nd 2022 at 4:04:56 AM
Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy
I can understand the importance of being stern and direct. But once the line gets crossed into mean or rude, that's actually a pretty great way to ruin any respect. It's like how someone can claim to "tell it like it is" but if they don't exercise a reasonable amount of tact, they're just being nasty and gossipy.
Not Three Laws compliant.
Uh, people aren't afraid of you coming down at people for breaking the rules, that's called being harsh but fair.
They're mad because they're afraid you're going to come down even when they aren't, because your past behavior has caused a lot of the userbase to develop a reasonable fear that you are not as good at separating these two roles as you claim you are. People consider your past actions and attitude to be both harsh and also unfair, which are terrible traits to have for a moderator.
![[awesome]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/minis/award_star_gold_3.png "[awesome]"){kind=small}
Basically that.
Edited by AlleyOop on Dec 22nd 2022 at 7:08:49 AM
She/her
Precisely this
Edited by wisewillow on Dec 22nd 2022 at 4:05:34 AM
I hope you don't see this, but I want to say it: you need this, Fighteer. We all need mental vacations and I don't think I've ever seen you have one.
It's been a warts-and-all conversation, but this I think is the best thing for you as a person: to not be associated with TVT, for a while.
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
@Fighteer: The impression I got (and there was admittedly a lot to go through here, so I may have misconstrued some things) is that people are less upset about your behavior as a mod—which some have said you do a good job with—and more your behavior as a regular poster. But both of those end up contributing to your image, which has led many to fear retribution if they were to report objectionable posts that you make.
But really, I think the key thing here is that there seems to be very little self-reflection on your part.
Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Dec 22nd 2022 at 7:06:46 AM
Oh God! Natural light!
Not sure if there's much point in responding to Fighteer, I don't know if he'll ever read these comments. The two things that stand out about his post:
- He doesn't seem to realise that "Big Bad Fighteer" is the problem here as that's bleeding into how people see Fighteer the person.
- Did he really call the Mod Voice colour pink? I've always seen it as red.
If you use night vision like I do it's red. It's pink otherwise.
Edited by sgamer82 on Dec 22nd 2022 at 4:08:06 AM
She/Her Pronouns
xFighteer I'm just gonna respond to one thing. Well, two things, one being that a break would be for the best, for you and for everyone.
The other though is "imagine people digging up all the mistakes you've made" because like. You're not unique? You aren't the only one who has had the people around you call you out for saying shitty things. I personally have had friends call me out for being a jackass before. So I don't have to imagine it - I know how it feels, it sucks, but it doesn't mean that they're wrong.
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
My issue here is that Fighteer's response only further proves my and other's points: he's not showing anything resembling remorse, acknowledging of others' offense, or showing a desire to better himself with that post. He made two (IMO) pretty poor excuses for isolated incidents of his behavior and then pulled a "stop dredging up offensive things I've done, guys!" It is clear to me that he has looked at these pages of discussion and instead of self-reflection, or realizing how many people he's upset and asking for some measure of forgiveness or understanding, he...pulls this. It's, if anything, strengthened my feelings that his chances of "changing" from this incident are little.
Edited by Ravok on Dec 22nd 2022 at 3:28:01 AM
WHAT A WONDERFUL DAY!