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This thread is for discussing the following topics:

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(Edited Mar 28 2024, adding bullet about OTC and amending layout a little)

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 11th 2024 at 3:20:25 AM

Florien The They who said it from statistically, slightly right behind you. Since: Aug, 2019
The They who said it
#5226: Nov 22nd 2022 at 7:04:33 PM

It's temporarily being allowed to avoid having those rules enforced, which isn't quite breaking them. I think.

If it's decided that it's a tropable work of fiction of some kind, (I'd say web original but that's not a namespace anymore I think so it can't be that, and it's probably not fanfiction by our definition, so... I don't know where it would go, but I think it's tropeable to some extent) then the other pages will be dealt with accordingly, and dealt with accordingly if it isn't meaningfully tropable. For now, it would be kind of pointless to cut the pages (aside from maybe the referenced by page as it's not actually been referenced by anything else yet) and then restore them if it's decided they can stay because it has been moved to a namespace other than JFF. If it gets decided that it stays JFF, then those pages can be cut, probably.

Though I don't think much would actually have to be changed to trope it as fiction. The tropes in question are all, by consensus, true about a fictional film that doesn't exist. Mostly.

Edited by Florien on Nov 22nd 2022 at 7:07:00 AM

ChloeJessica Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
#5227: Nov 22nd 2022 at 7:08:15 PM

no, they should be cut because they're being used wrong. they're invalid. they're troping the stupid thing as if it's a real movie. that's not allowed and it never has been. if it's decided that it can be troped - as collaborative fiction - they can be restored - for the collaborative fiction project. subpages for a fake damn movie are not on.

laserviking42 from End-World Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
#5228: Nov 22nd 2022 at 7:09:03 PM

Let's not speculate wildly as to the motives, only the mods know why and until they say something about it, everything is just popcorning.

I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#5229: Nov 22nd 2022 at 7:10:02 PM

I wouldn't call this popcorning, we're joining the discussion and trying to suggest reasons why this happened. Obviously we don't know the truth but what's the harm in making educated guesses?

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Florien The They who said it from statistically, slightly right behind you. Since: Aug, 2019
The They who said it
#5230: Nov 22nd 2022 at 7:12:08 PM

The thing is, as a collaborative fiction project, most of it is in-universe audience reactions, so is there a precedent for how to trope the in-universe audience reactions? Do they go on the work page? I'm actually unclear on that part.

ChloeJessica Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
#5231: Nov 22nd 2022 at 7:12:15 PM

im too angry for popcorn lmao

[up]yes. they're in-universe audience reactions to the fake work. in-universe audience reactions have always gone on the main work page.

Edited by ChloeJessica on Nov 22nd 2022 at 7:13:51 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#5232: Nov 22nd 2022 at 7:15:13 PM

[up][up] In-Universe audience reactions go on main pages, but these are not in-universe. In universe is fictional characters reaction to things in the narrative (such as a Show Within a Show). I don't see how people reacting to things in their fiction project is "in universe" personally

There's a thread opened about work pages like this here if people want to discuss the merit (or lackthereof) of having a work page. Right now (and bare in mind we're only 10 posts in) the consensus is that a "fictional" work could theoretically be troped if it has an actual canon to pull from, but then obviously we wouldn't be calling it a film.

Edited by WarJay77 on Nov 22nd 2022 at 10:15:49 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
ChloeJessica Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
#5233: Nov 22nd 2022 at 7:17:04 PM

[up]disagree, they're the reactions of the audience within the universe of the imaginary world where Martin Scorsese actually made this asinine movie. they're perfectly valid IU usage.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#5234: Nov 22nd 2022 at 7:18:36 PM

If that's what they are, fine. I don't know anything about this work and I don't particularly care to learn, lol. To me it sounded like the story's fans were the ones reacting... and the idea of the fictional movie having fictional reactions boggles my mind, but I'll roll with it

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#5235: Nov 22nd 2022 at 7:21:31 PM

Either way, there's a barely there discussion on how to handle these kind of works with no clear ruling. That's probably why. Cause the ruling is being questioned at that moment(or specifically how to handle said works), so trying to enforce it now isn't feasible nor necessary.

They're also in no way harmful to the wiki anyway, as they're silly fun things. We're not talking about uncomfortable works by default or stuff that clearly is ROCEJ. Both of which are important things to look at in comparison. It's just non-important stuff that so far are overall just fun things available on the wiki. That doesn't mean they're necessarily okay, but that doesn't mean they're necessarily not okay.

Thus, I can see the reason to wait; wait for a consensus on how to deal with it then act accordingly.

Shadow?
ChloeJessica Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
#5236: Nov 22nd 2022 at 7:23:36 PM

they are harmful to the wiki and there is a policy. troping fake works as if they were real has always, always, always been against the rules. troping fake works as if they were real goes completely counter to our purposes, has the potential to mislead people, could make us look like gullible fools, will get people reporting the page to let us know it's not real, the list goes on and on. they're bad and i want them gone.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#5237: Nov 22nd 2022 at 7:24:33 PM

Guys, if you want to talk about the merits of the work, please go to the thread I linked. The original topic here was about the cut declines — which is a valid policy question. Getting caught up in whether or not the work should have a page is off topic.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#5238: Nov 23rd 2022 at 12:49:29 AM

I think the problem with the definition of edit warring is that some folks are really keen on reporting anyone as soon as that anyone hits the technical definition of edit warring. We've had problems before with obviously vandalistic edits being reverted and these reverts being called "edit warring". I think a bit of a chill pill is advised.

As for Goncharov I think it's a combination of a) people being fond of putting pages in the JFF namespace that don't quite belong there and b) I am not actually sure we've ever set in stone that the pages in that namespace don't get subpages. Especially since that one's a joke work page, and work pages do get them.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#5239: Nov 23rd 2022 at 12:51:43 AM

[up]

  1. Wouldn't this new definition just lead to more rushed calls then? People aren't gonna differentiate between an "edit war" with one person reverting everything, and an "edit war" with different tropers editing every time. It'll be even more of a clusterfuck.
  2. Except I'm pretty sure it does say somewhere that JFF pages don't get subpages. It's why the subpages for JustForFun.The Ugly Barnacle got cut.

Edited by WarJay77 on Nov 23rd 2022 at 3:53:00 PM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#5240: Nov 23rd 2022 at 1:06:00 AM

e: disregard

Edited by Amonimus on Nov 23rd 2022 at 12:58:09 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#5241: Nov 23rd 2022 at 1:08:13 AM

[up] We've already been discussing that at the other linked forum thread, actually, but it's not for this thread.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#5242: Nov 23rd 2022 at 1:13:18 AM

I may have mixed up the questions about the work staying and the cut requests.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
ChloeJessica Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
#5243: Nov 23rd 2022 at 2:05:49 AM

Septimus, regardless, why are these pages exempt from the rule about troping fake works as if they were real that applies to every part of the wiki except JFF?

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#5244: Nov 23rd 2022 at 2:08:46 AM

TBF, the cut reasons only claimed that they were JFF, not that the work was fake. A mod who doesn't know any better wouldn't know that the pages were necessarily for a nonexistent movie, they'd just know that it's for a JFF page that's currently being contested.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#5245: Nov 23rd 2022 at 4:51:03 AM

That and it's apparently up for debate whether these works are actually fake. Given the habit of people shoehorning stuff into JFF, I work on a "when in doubt, deny cut" principle concerning that namespace.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#5246: Nov 23rd 2022 at 5:02:35 AM

Near as I can tell, Goncharov is a collective online fiction project based around a nonexistent Martin Scorsese film. That seems eminently tropable, so long as we stay clear-eyed about what it actually is as a work. Show Within a Show exists as a trope for a reason.

What's precedent ever done for us?
crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#5247: Nov 23rd 2022 at 3:24:58 PM

Wouldn't this new definition just lead to more rushed calls then? People aren't gonna differentiate between an "edit war" with one person reverting everything, and an "edit war" with different tropers editing every time. It'll be even more of a clusterfuck.

The purpose is to get people to call for discussion as opposed to calling for suspensions. There are a number of recent ATT queries that fall into this "I'm going to avoid an edit war" mindeset that we appreciate and want to encourage: [1], [2], [3], [4], and [5].

Notice that several of these queries are for edits by more than one editor. If there's just one editor, you can probably send them a PM.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#5248: Nov 23rd 2022 at 3:30:44 PM

People have always done that, though. It's not really a recent trend; people who know the edit war rules will recognize when something could turn into one and go to discussion.

I'm more concerned that expanding the definition of what an edit war is will just expand on the amount of reports and knee-jerk reactions to minor editing disputes. The reports I'm talking about aren't the "what do with this example" type, they're the "people are breaking the rules" type, and we'll see more of those if the definition is expanded.

For example, someone might call an edit war if multiple tropers are reverting their ZCE uncommenting or something, especially because as it stands people often ask other tropers to help them revert objectively problematic edits to avoid an edit war. Expanding the definition won't encourage people to bring these things to discussion more than they already are: It'll just give people more things to report, and will confuse the people who've been told for years that an Edit War is a very specific type of dispute.

Edited by WarJay77 on Nov 23rd 2022 at 6:31:22 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#5249: Nov 23rd 2022 at 6:35:11 PM

expanding the definition of what an edit war is

This is really confusing me. The definition is not changing. It has been the same since the article moved to the Administrivia/ namespace: The third edit is the threshold. The article has been updated to clarify that only "guilty" parties are suspended and policy has recently changed to clarify some examples of what "reverting to conform to wiki policy" entails.

Edited by crazysamaritan on Nov 23rd 2022 at 2:36:30 PM

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#5250: Nov 23rd 2022 at 6:39:01 PM

See, the discussion that led to us going here was about a proposed "update" to the Edit War page about the difference between "Edit War" and "Editwarring", with "Edit War" suddenly being described as any editing conflict with three or more edits regardless of who is doing the reverting.

If this version of Edit War is a correct definition, then the current page is wrong, in that it can occur even if the third edit isn't made by troper A or B.

That's what we came to talk about.

Edited by WarJay77 on Nov 23rd 2022 at 9:39:31 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall

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