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We're aware that the Edit Banned thread has a Non-Indicative Name, due to it also covering non-editing suspensions. We're not sure whether the name for that thread can even be edited without breaking the special coding that keeps posting restricted to mods and suspended users, so we're leaving it alone for now, because better safe than sorry.
(Edited Mar 28 2024, adding bullet about OTC and amending layout a little)

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 11th 2024 at 3:20:25 AM

wingedcatgirl mys. minty from the silly dimension from lurking (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
mys. minty from the silly dimension
#501: Jan 19th 2021 at 12:33:45 PM

The Murderverse is definitely getting moved off-site, regardless of anything else, for all the reasons laid out here by various people. That's just taking some time to do and we're not sure how to handle the still-active games in the meantime.

Suddenly I'm... still rotating Fallen London in my mind even though I've stopped actively playing it.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#502: Jan 19th 2021 at 12:38:32 PM

I guess the question with the other games is...is the "detox" specifically about the forum itself or about the environment that spawned these issues, which would be the specific threads they were on rather than Fan Games and Yack Fest?

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#503: Jan 19th 2021 at 12:40:08 PM

It feels like we just need more mods, yet the mod team is extremely hesitant to recruit new people. (edit: and at the risk of being thumped, I feel like a certain mod should take a break)

Sorry, I missed this.

Literally none of this incident could have played any differently whether the mod team was composed of 2 people or 50 and we acted appropriately. And I'm sorry to say but the admins haven't even removed Nombre's mod privileges despite her request. I could ask for a new mod right now but there's no guarantee my request will be actioned.

The issue of cliques trying to claim ownership of threads (unwittingly so and perhaps with no malice intended) is not an issue that is solved with numbers. It requires examining a social pattern. And I'm sorry to say but there isn't a single person I would recruit to moderate the Trash Heap. Even if I were to recruit somebody to moderate Yack Fest, I can't force them to monitor threads they don't want to (unless the problem is clear as day). Especially when they're trying to balance using the recreational aspects of the site with moderation duties.

As for Fighteer, please stop scapegoating him. I've given him a lot of grief over some actions or decisions he's made but this isn't one of them. He's honestly being quite attentive, which is more than what I can say for most of us. And I count myself among the least active moderators because my life is stupidly busy.

Edited by lu127 on Jan 19th 2021 at 12:45:45 PM

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#504: Jan 19th 2021 at 12:43:41 PM

Hmm.

I'd be willing to allow other games to remain as long as they don't cause problems akin to Murderverse or Trash Heap. The core dilemma here is that we, as moderators, don't see problems that happen offsite. We categorically refuse the implied responsibility to manage conversations that don't take place within our purview.

One of two things needs to happen, thus:

  1. The persons responsible for these games report directly to the moderation team and inform us of any actions they would like us to take on the basis of what is going on: rules violations and so on. We will take those actions unless there's a strong reason not to. If doing so causes drama explosions and/or bans, the participants will be asked to take their game offsite.
    • Each game would presumably need to identify its "owner" somehow, perhaps in the OP. If the OP needs to be mod-edited, we can accommodate that, but if people can't agree on who owns it, then it's shared and either we only moderate if it breaks our general rules or it gets cut.

  2. Any game with an offsite component moves entirely offsite.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 19th 2021 at 3:44:39 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#505: Jan 19th 2021 at 12:45:05 PM

There's a lot of issues on this site that could be fixed at least with hiring new engineers to do grunt work, but this issue would've required bringing it to the mod's attention before it spiraled out of control.

Yack Fest's distrust of the mods became the big obstacle, not the amount of mods on staff.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#506: Jan 19th 2021 at 12:46:00 PM

[up][up] I like 2. If something has an offsite component, it should not be on TV Tropes. That might make it easier for you guys to moderate—granted I am obviously not a mod and I would not know, but I assume based on what you guys the mods have said it would help.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Jan 19th 2021 at 3:46:42 PM

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#507: Jan 19th 2021 at 12:46:27 PM

I'll be frank about that distrust thing: I don't want to moderate Yack Fest. Of all the places on the site, it's the one I am least invested in. Maybe that's a personal failing, and if so I freely acknowledge it, but I really didn't sign up for this.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#508: Jan 19th 2021 at 12:46:33 PM

I think the Trash Heap could be kept as a resource.

A resource for what?

This isn’t me being snarky, I genuinely don’t understand the purpose of the thread. People have said it’s not about shitposting, so that is it about?

Yack Fest's distrust of the mods became the big obstacle, not the amount of mods on staff.

Okay I’m gonna be dumb here, but why are people being hugely committed to a web forum where they don’t either trust the staff or make attempts to build trust with the staff?

The day I stop broadly trusting the TV Tropes mods is the day I leave the site. It seems absurd to stay in a space where you don’t trust the people running it.

Edited by Silasw on Jan 19th 2021 at 8:49:52 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#509: Jan 19th 2021 at 12:50:03 PM

Yack Fest's distrust of the mods became the big obstacle, not the amount of mods on staff.

And yet everyone (I have over a dozen hollers) readily and immediately hollered a rules violation when it came from the person they wanted to get rid of. We were trusted for that. While reassuring others they wouldn't holler as long as the rules violation gave the person they didn't like what she deserved.

I don't think this is mistrust. It's something else that only breeds in toxic environments.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#510: Jan 19th 2021 at 12:50:11 PM

I mean, Yack Fest as a forum in general is mostly harmless and easy-going. I like the "weird dream" thread in particular because I get a lot of weird dreams and they're fun to talk about. But the culture of some threads, the ones that wind up with a group of "regulars", those are the ones that need the moderation and they're the ones that become toxic. If the entire forum was just some random topics to post to when you feel like sharing thoughts or experiences, it'd be completely harmless.

I don't think this is mistrust. It's something else that only breeds in toxic environments.

Well...hmm. Everyone admitted that they hollered so late because they thought the entire forum would be shut down if they did. That sounds like they only acted in desperation, and then lashed out when they thought their fears were correct. But maybe I'm wrong. It'd sure be great if people showed up to confirm or deny, but guess we can only speculate.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 19th 2021 at 3:54:23 PM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
TheWhistleTropes janet likes her new icon. Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
janet likes her new icon.
#511: Jan 19th 2021 at 12:50:32 PM

Yes, that was my intent, and the OP's. It would be a place where contributors could let loose and shitpost to their heart's content. The Hangout Thread would be for everything else, including minor venting. and the Thread Anti-Necromancy Game would be left in the Poastonium dust it created in its meltdown.

Insecurities, unsure about keeping that. It could serve the opposite purpose to the Trash Heap, where true depression could be let loose in a safe space. Just as long as nobody plays therapist, which has been considered a major problem.


Re: Weird dreams: I posted the idea that birthed the Shoe-Haters' Club on Weird dreams because I knew it is a place where weird dreams are placed. Then I obsessed over it for a few weeks before I finally caved in and made it because I was concerned about the possibility of introducing creeps into the fold who were only in it for pictures of bare feetnote .


[up] Yes, basically exactly that. I felt like I was on thin ice with the mods and basically played the game of appeasement. So I couldn't holler anyone lest the threads implode again, and I'd lose a common hangout for many of my friends due to restricted internet.

Edited by TheWhistleTropes on Jan 19th 2021 at 3:55:14 PM

she/her/they | wall | sandbox
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#512: Jan 19th 2021 at 12:50:41 PM

Also, we've been explicitly told in the past that the Trash Heap is for shitposting. Y'all can't have it both ways.

Edit: [nja]

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 19th 2021 at 3:51:18 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#513: Jan 19th 2021 at 12:54:39 PM

Double Post because I was accidentally ninjaed.

I'm all for safe spaces in the broad sense of eliminating hateful conduct so that people can express their identity without fear of harassment (as long as they are discussing things that are actually legal, of course). We absolutely prohibit hate speech: racism, homophobia, transphobia, religious persecution, and so on, no matter where it occurs on our site. If someone wants to attack someone else for their protected identity, they go boing (referring to the 'bounce' tool that is a total ban).

I'm not for "safe spaces" in the sense of enabling self-pitying behavior, nor indeed for enabling toxic behavior like shitposting. I've been tempted to close down the Trash Heap and/or Anti-Necromancy threads whenever I see a holler because someone posted Zalgo text or exploded the forum post frame with walls of text or posted obscene images. You cannot have a functional community without any rules whatsoever.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 19th 2021 at 3:57:12 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#514: Jan 19th 2021 at 12:55:41 PM

Insecurities should IMO not be kept. I cannot see people not playing therapist in that environment. I have Asperger's and an anxiety disorder myself—I have seen other environments meant for people like me turn into unlicensed therapy or, for lack of a better word, "hugboxes" due to the circumstances being similar to our thread.

Maybe I'm just cynical and basing my experiences off of my former time on Reddit (a website I no longer participate in due to the toll the widespread toxicity amongst the community took on my mental health) but I have seen these kinds of communities turn into a less drama-filled but still problematic version of the Insecurities thread and I don't trust that our thread won't go that way.

Sorry about the ranting, I just feel strongly about this.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Jan 19th 2021 at 3:56:24 PM

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WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#515: Jan 19th 2021 at 12:57:56 PM

So it seems like "Absent People" is where most people have taken to discussing feelings on the matter (and, well, declaring their intention to quit). Septimus already posted a link there. Is it worth giving another nudge to say "hey, discussion's still ongoing"? Or can we assume that if they rejected it the first time, they'll reject it a second time?

As for [up], I don't think you're being cynical at all. In my experience, groups like these always turn out toxic and co-dependant.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 19th 2021 at 4:00:42 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
TheWhistleTropes janet likes her new icon. Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
janet likes her new icon.
#516: Jan 19th 2021 at 12:58:48 PM

[up][up] As an Aspie, I understand how you feel. Although we have opposite perspectives, I am willing to consider other perspectives. Perhaps relentless shitposting, kinkposting, and depressionpostingnote  should be banned. It's fine to crack a few random jokes, talk about your loves, or vent frustrations in a general hangout thread in moderation, but if it happens often it should be treated pretty harshly. Therapists need to hear them, and professional ones on duty at that.

Edited by TheWhistleTropes on Jan 19th 2021 at 4:00:11 AM

she/her/they | wall | sandbox
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#517: Jan 19th 2021 at 12:58:49 PM

I don't think that's cynical, it's the unfortunate consequence of such threads, and they are demonstrably bad for people.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#518: Jan 19th 2021 at 1:01:03 PM

[up] Good to know, thanks. I will admit that Reddit was worse because of the upvote/downvote system that made everything 100,000x as toxic, but I still think these types of environments aren't good and do more damage than they are worth. I don't feel the thread should be reopened, and I additionally think it should be outright deleted for being a giant catalogue of people's personal thoughts and feelings that I believe to be potentially dangerous to keep on the site. I just think it is more trouble than it is worth.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Jan 19th 2021 at 4:04:21 AM

Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#519: Jan 19th 2021 at 1:02:39 PM

It would be a place where contributors could let loose and shitpost to their heart's content.

You’re going to have to explain to me why enabling shitposting would be a good thing.

If we were a school I could see the logic, my school had a graffiti wall, but we’re not here for teenagers to let off steam or learn how to vent their emotions.

It could serve the opposite purpose to the Trash Heap, where true depression could be let loose in a safe space.

I do not see how a public forum where strangers can read and record every word can be considered a safe space to let loose ones depression. That’s before we put in all the other people with issues that they need to vent, which can cause a negative feedback loop.

A private conversation with a friend or trusted responsible person can be that safe space, a meeting with a medical professional can be that safe space, a non-public, managed and supervised support group can be that space.

TV Tropes does not have the needed medical personnel on staff to make a truly safe space to “let loose” ones depression, I’m not sure if such a space could even be created somewhere publicly viewable like a web forum.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TheWhistleTropes janet likes her new icon. Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
janet likes her new icon.
#520: Jan 19th 2021 at 1:07:29 PM

Right... perhaps I'm blinded by a nostalgia that I shouldn't really have, considering they're long threads that extended for many years before their untimely locks.

You may have noticed that many people think the Trash Heap and Insecurities threads should be reinstated, but perhaps they could use some persuasion toward a certain perspective.

[down] Sorry, made a typo. I meant "reinstated" or "reintroduced."

Edited by TheWhistleTropes on Jan 19th 2021 at 4:12:03 AM

she/her/they | wall | sandbox
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#521: Jan 19th 2021 at 1:08:30 PM

[up] What do you mean by "introduced"? Just want to make sure I understand you.

Zanreo Gizmondo from Glitch City (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Gizmondo
#522: Jan 19th 2021 at 1:09:47 PM

Okay I’m gonna be dumb here, but why are people being hugely committed to a web forum where they don’t either trust the staff or make attempts to build trust with the staff?

In most cases I'd imagine it's because they like the site itself and its community, despite this.

My favorite failed console tbh
TheWhistleTropes janet likes her new icon. Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
janet likes her new icon.
#523: Jan 19th 2021 at 1:13:06 PM

[up] And also perhaps, at least in the Thread Anti-Necromancy Game, a child predator may have been trying to breed or amplify anti-moderator sentiment among the people. At least, that's how I read it.

But perhaps I should stop scapegoating; it seems to be a widespread problem even without him in the fold. I think plenty of us aren't a Mod-hating, rather a Mod-fearing people.

[down][down] Yeah, I should probably stop bringing him up. He was an asshole and has been unpersoned for the most part.

Edited by TheWhistleTropes on Jan 19th 2021 at 4:17:26 AM

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madface7 Kuma appreciation gang from a Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
Kuma appreciation gang
#524: Jan 19th 2021 at 1:13:26 PM

FG and YF is where I met pretty much all of my friends.

They hold special places in my heart.

Kumatora needs to be appreciated more. Appreciate her.
themayorofsimpleton Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him from the Island of Koridai (Captain) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
Short-Term Projects Herald | he/him
#525: Jan 19th 2021 at 1:14:04 PM

[up][up] Wait what? What are you referring to?

EDIT: Cut out problematic bit from my response.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Jan 19th 2021 at 4:14:26 AM

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