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This thread is for discussing the following topics:

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We're aware that the Edit Banned thread has a Non-Indicative Name, due to it also covering non-editing suspensions. We're not sure whether the name for that thread can even be edited without breaking the special coding that keeps posting restricted to mods and suspended users, so we're leaving it alone for now, because better safe than sorry.
(Edited Mar 28 2024, adding bullet about OTC and amending layout a little)

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 11th 2024 at 3:20:25 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#5001: Oct 28th 2022 at 1:37:34 AM

Assuming from the above posts that I’m good to come back to this.

If I'm remembering the correct user, then it's a little hard to check since some of their posts were apparently deemed bad enough to be outright deleted instead of just thumped. The posts regarding what that user said in the LGBT Rights and Religion thread don't exactly paint a rosy picture, though.

Different case. They were only around for a brief period once the LGBT Rights and Religion thread was formed. Their posts in the LGBT Rights in America thread basically bounced between discussing Christian theology, explaining that despite their religion beliefs they do support gay marriage and gay rights, and writing short story fan-fiction of the thread regulars being Starfleet officers fighting for gay rights in space (OTC was much less serious back then).

We’ve had a lot of really horrible homophobes in OTC over the years, so it’s hard to remember every ban that comes out of the LGBT rights threads.

my impression was that the problem wasn't religion per se but more trying to justify homophobia with religion and most importantly, constantly talking about religious aspects of LGBT rights until they drowned out non-religious aspects of the discussion.

I’d dispute the idea that they were justifying homophobia with religion, they were certainly explaining it though and the second point about conversation domination is one that was true but was also not just them.

My main point was that everything I remember from the time and from what I remember discussing with others at the time indicated that the ban wasn’t the result of an internal discussion that resulted in a conclusion that the user had issues. It was one member of the moderator team deciding they wanted the user in question gone largely due to their dislike of them due to their religiousness, issuing a ban and then a moderator conversation happening that partially walked the ban back after pushback from the user base.

My understanding from around the site is that it wasn’t particularly unusual for that member of the moderation team to run a bit on emotion and personal sentiment rather than calm and considered reasoning.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
ChloeJessica Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
#5002: Oct 28th 2022 at 3:39:38 AM

i discovered the Sinfest thread and im honestly curious why it's been allowed to stick around. it's openly a bashing thread at this point. i know it's been around since before the comic turned into a screed for bigotry and wasn't always like this; is it Grandfather Clause? im pretty sure if someone tried to start it today and it drew in the kind of posts i saw in there, it would get shut down in very short order.

Edited by ChloeJessica on Oct 28th 2022 at 3:40:08 AM

MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
#5003: Oct 28th 2022 at 4:36:08 AM

This has been brought up before and the last time it was discussed was on this ATT two years ago. I don't think anything was resolved though and I haven't read the Sinfest thread since.

I don't know how bad the negativity is in the thread now but I know the comic continues to get worse and no one on the site likes it haha. Anyways, I do think it's something that wouldn't be allowed to say and I don't think it's fair to police negativity in other threads and have that thread as an exception even if it's only around because of grandfather clause.

If there's nothing good to say about the work at all, I don't think should have a thread on it if we have a rule about engaging in excessive negativity.

Edited by MacronNotes on Oct 28th 2022 at 5:25:11 AM

Macron's notes
Willbyr Hi (Y2K) Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Hi
#5004: Oct 28th 2022 at 6:40:47 AM

I think the thread is about in the same place it was when that ATT was created. Sinfest itself has only gotten worse since then, unfortunately.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#5005: Oct 28th 2022 at 6:53:49 AM

I've been in the topic a few times and noted how relatively calm it is

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
#5006: Oct 28th 2022 at 8:25:22 AM

Well, calmness isn't the issue here. The thread is stuck at a negative bent because there's nothing good to talk about. The only thing to discuss is how bad the comic and author is.

Edited by MacronNotes on Oct 28th 2022 at 5:25:33 AM

Macron's notes
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#5007: Oct 28th 2022 at 8:32:03 AM

I have to agree, if it was started now, it would be shut down as per the rule about not starting threads just to complain. No one has had any good to say on this comic in years, and that was back when I was still reading it a few years ago.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#5008: Oct 28th 2022 at 9:10:23 AM

Someone asked if it's fine to open a Sonichu thread and the answer was no because there's nothing to constructively discuss about it. If the Sinfest thread as of late only talks about how bad it is (I haven't checked), I suppose it's a reason to not keep it around.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
NeedsAirCon from Access Denied....Human Since: Aug, 2018 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
#5009: Oct 28th 2022 at 9:12:11 AM

Just noted that the Sinfest thread has been locked without any of the active members there being allowed any defense of it?

Edit: -

Considering the author's past of banning and deleting his own forums, I guess that's a win for him if forums not under his control are locked and/or deleted

He must be celebrating right now

Edited by NeedsAirCon on Oct 28th 2022 at 4:14:40 PM

Skynet Is Inevitable. Skynet IS...Undergoing Repairs Atm.Please re-insert plug and reboot
Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#5010: Oct 28th 2022 at 9:15:56 AM

> He must be celebrating right now

not worth even contemplating if Tats knows or cares

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#5011: Oct 28th 2022 at 9:17:13 AM

[up][up]

First, trolls and bigots feed off of attention. If he wants to be noticed by us because of his horrible views, he won't get it.

Second, TV Tropes is under no obligation to right wrongs or fix social ills. We want to have a productive, harmonious site and if a thread consists of nothing except saying how awful a person or work is, it's not useful. This has nothing to do with the author's political leanings.

See Complaining About Shows You Don't Like.

Edited by Fighteer on Oct 28th 2022 at 12:17:45 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#5012: Oct 28th 2022 at 9:17:37 AM

Back when I hung out there it was just popcorning the trainwreck without much serious constructive criticism, if any, and that had been going on for years, and I don't think it's become any better since then.

I mean, what's left to say? Tats continues to explore the deep rabbit hole of right wing TERF conspiracy theories, and there's absolutely no sign of him stopping. Anyone still reading from here is only doing so ironically, and I don't see the point in keeping it open, because, well, what else is there left now but to bash the comic and its author? We're a literal decade away from when the comic was anything approaching good. It's simply time for everyone to move on.

Also, like Fighteer implies above, we are not in the business of sticking it to bad webcomic authors for writing bad comics by keeping criticism about him alive.

Edited by Redmess on Oct 28th 2022 at 6:19:49 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
NeedsAirCon from Access Denied....Human Since: Aug, 2018 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
#5013: Oct 28th 2022 at 9:20:30 AM

Fair points

In that case I'd like to also ask you to remove all the artwork that T Vtropes uses back from the days Sinfest was good

And remove the Sinfest tvtrope page as well since we're not allowed to discuss it on the forum thread anymore

Skynet Is Inevitable. Skynet IS...Undergoing Repairs Atm.Please re-insert plug and reboot
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#5014: Oct 28th 2022 at 9:21:50 AM

If the idea of "getting back at" a controversial creator is to dunk on them on private forums, regardless of how would it make sense, I really don't think Tvt is a good place for it.

We're not removing any wiki content on Sinfest since it's not used for discussions, it's used for documenting that such comic exists.

Edited by Amonimus on Oct 28th 2022 at 7:23:19 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#5015: Oct 28th 2022 at 9:23:31 AM

Re: Forums: IIRC, the general Star Wars forum was locked due to bashing, but we still have a page for Star Wars.

NeedsAirCon from Access Denied....Human Since: Aug, 2018 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
#5016: Oct 28th 2022 at 9:24:23 AM

But wasn't this the treatment for Stonetoss, which Sinfest is broadly similar to now?

Skynet Is Inevitable. Skynet IS...Undergoing Repairs Atm.Please re-insert plug and reboot
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#5017: Oct 28th 2022 at 9:25:44 AM

There's nothing wrong with having a trope page about a controversial work (we sure have plenty of those!), or with using artwork from that work to illustrate tropes when appropriate.

I also find that a rather petty demand smacking of taking revenge for the community taking your favourite bashing thread away, and I'm not going to give it much credit on that account.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#5018: Oct 28th 2022 at 9:26:19 AM

I think locking the sinfest topic will encourage regulars to explore more of the forum and hopefully contribute a little more positively

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#5019: Oct 28th 2022 at 9:27:02 AM

Furthermore, Stonetoss tried to conceal its agenda, which made ROCEJ hard.

NeedsAirCon from Access Denied....Human Since: Aug, 2018 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
#5020: Oct 28th 2022 at 9:27:24 AM

You were a member of that community Redmess

And it's grossly unjust to accuse me of just wanting to bash Tatsuya. Like many others there, I have given praise to him when I felt it was due

Edited by NeedsAirCon on Oct 28th 2022 at 4:27:51 PM

Skynet Is Inevitable. Skynet IS...Undergoing Repairs Atm.Please re-insert plug and reboot
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#5021: Oct 28th 2022 at 9:29:17 AM

Stonetoss is an exception because 1. His writing is ambiguous, meaning we can't accurately describe the intent. 2. No matter what we've tried, outside people come in and started "correcting" us in both ways, and we've decided to not bother. No other page had this treatment.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#5022: Oct 28th 2022 at 9:29:37 AM

We are not revenge-deleting articles unless they violate our policies. Stonetoss was a special case because its fans kept trying to pretend that it wasn't a hate work. Grow up, please.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#5023: Oct 28th 2022 at 9:32:08 AM

Alright, I'll bite. What praise was there to give in the last 12 months?

And yes, I was a part of the thread, years ago, and I left (and stopped reading the comic) because I felt I had just about seen everything there was to see about the trainwreck, both the comic and the thread started to feel very repetitive, and I felt that in the years I spent on that thread I and others had just about discussed literally everything there was to be discussed related to the comic, and I felt nothing was left to be gained from either comic or thread.

Like, yeah, it was kind of fun to dissect it all when it was all starting to go downhill, but that's all over a decade ago, and even back then the thread was overwhelmingly negative.

There are only so many ways to say "thing bad". It's time to move on.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
NeedsAirCon from Access Denied....Human Since: Aug, 2018 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
#5024: Oct 28th 2022 at 9:36:36 AM

Whereas in Sinfest's case the fans here don't pretend it's not devolved into a hate work and call it out

Ah, well, I can see why T Vtropes would't want to be associated with Sinfest (because lets face it: - it's a hate work now) and it's not like there aren't at least two other forums where people can discuss it

I do think it's hypocritical to ban the forum because the work is too consistently unpleasant to allow comments, then keep the borowed artwork from it illustrating several tropes and the master page which both advertise Sinfest to the casual reader though

Do you really want to keep advertising Sinfest if it's, in your judgement, too unredeeming for T Vtropers to be able to comment on?

Whatever,

I'm not expecting to change your minds, but I will say you could have at least given some warning and maybe linked the reddit or something so people could choose to migrate or not

Skynet Is Inevitable. Skynet IS...Undergoing Repairs Atm.Please re-insert plug and reboot
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#5025: Oct 28th 2022 at 9:40:40 AM

We are not obligated to point you to an alternative thread, much less on another site.

Also, having a few page images from the comic hardly constitutes advertising. But if you really feel they should go, you could always make a proposal in Image Picking on the relevant tropes and discuss it there.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times

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