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Note: The thread currently has a limit of one post every two hours for non-mod users. Currently, this is hard-coded by the admins, but there are plans to give mods the ability to toggle it without admin intervention. After mods are given the ability to do that, the time limit may be further reduced or removed entirely.


This thread is for discussing the following topics:

  • Questions and clarifications about the site's rules and policies pertaining to wiki editing, forum posting, trope launching, and so on.
  • If you have an idea for a thread on another part of the forums but aren't sure if creating it would be allowed, feel free to ask here.

This thread is not for any of the following:

  • Reporting complaints or concerns about specific moderation decisions (e.g. suspensions and thumps). Report these directly to the admins via the contact form. Selecting "The Staff" sends your message to the admins only, without making it visible to moderators.
  • Queries about thumps applied to your own forum posts, including contesting the validity of a thump. Reply to the relevant moderator via PM for these matters.
  • Ban appeals (use the "Edit Banned" thread in this forum).
  • Reporting problems or requesting moderator action in the wiki or forums (use Ask The Tropers or Hollersnote  or specialized threads such as "Locked Pages").
  • Queries about locked On-Topic Conversations (OTC) threads or banned discussion topics. OTC has its own moderation discussion thread here, and the latest statement on the locked US Politics thread and other banned OTC topics is here. Bluntly, when certain OTC threads and topics have repeatedly caused problems, we're not going to provide forum space to discuss them again until the moderation toolkit is equipped to handle those conversations.
  • Cut List challenges and queries (they have their own thread here).
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  • Crowner actions. Please use the holler function instead.
  • Discussion about changing or implementing policies. Please use Wiki Talk for that. (Asking whether it's OK to make a specific thread is acceptable; using this thread in place of such a thread is not.)
  • Asking about the whereabouts of inactive mods (or other inactive users) before they return, if they return at all. Use the Absent people thread for discussing inactive users.

Posts that use this thread in place of the sections listed in the bulleted list above are off-topic.
We're aware that the Edit Banned thread has a Non-Indicative Name, due to it also covering non-editing suspensions. We're not sure whether the name for that thread can even be edited without breaking the special coding that keeps posting restricted to mods and suspended users, so we're leaving it alone for now, because better safe than sorry.
(Edited Mar 28 2024, adding bullet about OTC and amending layout a little)

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 11th 2024 at 3:20:25 AM

N1KF Alleged Number1KirbyFan (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Alleged Number1KirbyFan
#4251: May 6th 2022 at 3:20:17 PM

I haven't needed to use the edit banned thread, but if I did I would probably be pretty self-conscious about it. Of the threads I have on my watchlist, it's probably the most fast-paced in the sheer amount of text posted there.

The problem isn't necessarily that the thread is public, but I suspect it could be that there's a single, central thread for all of this. People who got suspended for not knowing indentation rules get lumped in warnings that people are getting bounced for ban evasion, which is not a flattering place to be in.

[up][up][up] Yeah, that makes sense. It would make the thread even more cluttered to respond to all the complaints made there.

Edited by N1KF on May 6th 2022 at 5:21:20 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#4252: May 6th 2022 at 3:23:01 PM

I would prefer to work with suspensions in a ticket-based system wherein each user gets a dedicated conversation, but again, we play with the cards we have.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
N1KF Alleged Number1KirbyFan (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Alleged Number1KirbyFan
#4253: May 6th 2022 at 3:29:23 PM

laserviking42: To be clear, I'm not saying ban evaders are justified in evading their bans, just explaining how why they may decide to do it, and how we could prevent it. In my mind this somewhat relates back to the edit banned thread.

I was hoping others would naturally figure out other ways to handle things, and I suspected that if I wrote too much it would risk dragging the conversation in too many directions. I suppose I did that already though.

I have more to consider but I need to go, so this what I'm posting for now.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#4254: May 6th 2022 at 3:29:51 PM

Centralisation has the benefit of allowing collective learning, both for banned people and for observers, and again, it allows for better oversight monitoring.

Right now I only have one thread I need to monitor to make sure Fighteer doesn’t start banning people from OTC for saying mean things about Musk, I don’t want to have five. tongue

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#4255: May 6th 2022 at 3:35:15 PM

The thing is that any solution we come up with that involves technical changes to the site is not guaranteed to happen, so we can't depend on it.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#4256: May 6th 2022 at 3:45:48 PM

Indeed, our hands are somewhat tied on that front.

But no matter all these problems, they are circumstantial to the main issue: evading a ban is never the correct way to appeal said ban, and it will just get you banned again for doing so.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#4257: May 6th 2022 at 3:57:30 PM

Edit Banned is definitely better than the way most sites handle it. I was banned once for making a harmless The Room reference at the expense of the mods, and they denied me a release when I protested. I had to contact one of my forum friends on a different site just to tell everyone else that I was even suspended, and all of them were just as shocked and confused about the situation (and it was assumed that I was suspended mostly for Make an Example of Them reasons).

You don't get that with EB. Everything is very transparent. Sure, sometimes the process is... flawed, mods don't always focus on the most pressing concerns or outright get information confused, which makes it hard to appeal. But for people who actually put in the effort of working with the mods, they're pretty much always released. The problem isn't the system, it's that people refuse to cooperate or can't understand what they did wrong. And the solution definitely isn't to "let people with good intentions ban evade", it's to enforce the rules and only let people contribute if they know what they're doing and can comprehend the rules.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#4258: May 6th 2022 at 4:03:35 PM

Indeed, all things considered, we have a very lenient and cooperative mod team who give suspended users plenty of fair opportunities to appeal. There's certainly far worse out there. On some forums, if they ban you, you're just gone and it's not the mods' problem. If it's really bad, they won't even care if it was unfair.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#4259: May 6th 2022 at 4:10:19 PM

Like I said, in my appeal for my indentation suspension, it took me ten responses before I was finally released, but it was because I was still making formatting issues before I finally got it exactly right. The mod was incredibly accommodating and clearly wanted me to get released, which is a far cry from how other places handle is, and they even took it in stride when one of my issues was a misunderstanding on their part and released me once it was cleared up. It may not be perfect, but it's still a good system by its own merits

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on May 6th 2022 at 7:10:31 AM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#4260: May 6th 2022 at 4:12:00 PM

Well, naturally. I mean, we are also a wiki, and we'd like to retain as many people to work on it as we possibly can. Just banning everyone who ever screws up editing would be... counterproductive, to say the least.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#4261: May 6th 2022 at 4:15:16 PM

Of course. And I think that, unlike other sites where rules are created and enforced arbitrarily by mods, and where the only thing at stake is whether or not someone is allowed to post on a forum, ban evading is a much bigger deal here because we have an entire wiki at stake. We have to have high standards, but those standards are also not unreasonable or without mercy for failing them.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
N1KF Alleged Number1KirbyFan (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Alleged Number1KirbyFan
#4262: May 6th 2022 at 5:58:52 PM

OK, I'm back and I've brainstormed some ideas that require fairly little development.

  1. Have a ban appeals query, similar to Ask The Tropers or Trope Finder. It could also use the "private" code from Bug Reports to allow users to keep their appeal private. Requires some development to launch the board, and some code to prevent overlapping queries and people commenting on others' appeals. This may be as simple as writing two more conditionals into the code.
  2. Allow people to appeal on their troper page. The only development needed would be to allow banned users to edit their own troper page. This one is a bit weirder, and more comparable to how Wikipeda handles their talk pages. There would also need to be a way for mods to locate these appeals, such as the "report" feature being cloned into an "appeal" feature.
  3. Have more than one edit banned thread, based on the reason for suspension (bad edits, civility issues). Requires some development if the edit banned thread is hardcoded, which it probably is. I imagine the easiest way to implement this would be to create multiple suspension types, each with an associated thread.

If there is absolutely no development used towards improving suspension appeals, here are two other ideas:

  1. Have an explanation somewhere of why we have a central edit banned thread. This has pretty much no downsides and I'd highly recommend it.
  2. In addition to current methods, allow users to appeal by messaging mods directly. A dummy bot account could be set up that automatically redirects messages from suspended users to the mods. This allows privacy, but it may make some cases harder for the mods to follow.

I don't think TV Tropes is quite comparable to other forums, since they're communities designed around people individually posting their own thoughts. A wiki is more collaborative, so it especially benefits from transparency. If you're interested in seeing how Wikipedia handles it, you may want to check out Appealing a block.

Wikipedia allows appeals on talk pages, which gives users more space while still allowing users to publicly view cases. The edit banned thread here is like a court where multiple different cases are being handled at the same time, and if we could split up the discussions more neatly I think things could go more smoothly.

Interestingly, Wikipedia actually allows other users to comment on appeals. I know it's sort of taboo here, but I wonder if that could actually help us.

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#4263: May 6th 2022 at 6:05:14 PM

I don;t know about the rest of that, but iirc the Edit Banned thread we have now is the second. The first was before my time, but from what I've heard it let people comment and that was an unmitigated disaster of commenters who thought they were funny.

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#4264: May 6th 2022 at 6:08:38 PM

(Removed. Doesn't feel on-topic here)

Edited by Irene on May 6th 2022 at 8:11:38 AM

Shadow?
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#4265: May 6th 2022 at 6:15:37 PM

The 1 may work if coders ever get to making more queries, though you may as well let banned users make private ATT's at this rate and somehow split the query ban (we have that too). 2 seems workable, but it would just give more pressure on mods to watch every banned troper's page when they have other threads to monitor. 3 imho sounds pointless.

For other ideas, I don't see the point of explaining that you appeal your bans in the ban appeal thread, and What to Do If You Are Suspended already mentions it. DM'ing mods is already fine, but the only good reason for it is security issues, I don't recall a case where privacy was a problem.

A reminder that there's a bug that prevents tropers from seeing their ban notifications. If that got fixed, they would be able to read the DM's with the instructions. The only way around it would be mods putting directions to EB thread in DM's subject.

Btw, I've talked previously that if mods don't want to deal with repetitive questions they could add a FAQ to the EB pinned post, but it wouldn't be an appeal if banned users got most of the answer for them, and I'd encourage them to actually ask why they can't edit.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
laserviking42 from End-World Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
#4266: May 6th 2022 at 6:19:42 PM

Wikipedia has formal warning/suspension/appeal/block/etc system in place, a system I would not like to see done here. The hoops they have to jump through to toss bad faith editors on their ear is mind numbing.

I don't think having the Edit/Banned thread being public is a problem, it promotes transparency and keeps everyone on the same page. I've seen tropers come here to voice concerns over bounces they find problematic, and the mods generally listen to the concerns. Keeping these things behind closed doors is a bad idea, it tends to breed cliquishness and arbitrary decisions. I also don't get your concerns about multiple suspendees all on the same thread ...

But most of all, I don't get why you feel the system needs to be overhauled. There were issues about a year ago when we had too few mods and the cases were backing up, but since the promotion of about four mods not too long ago, it's been running alot more smoothly.

I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#4267: May 6th 2022 at 6:25:23 PM

[up] Yeah, Wikipedia is also a lot more formal, which is why they can let other users comment on the process. I feel like an open ban thread on TVT would immediately turn into "the mods have to ban every user on the site for clowning in the ban thread"

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
#4268: May 6th 2022 at 6:32:13 PM

Our system isn't perfect but it's workable and most people on EB find their way around the thread just fine.

I don't see how having multiple makes things less confusing for people and we don't need any more sticky FAQ threads. I also don't see the point in having people appeal on their troper page. That seems even harder to follow than our current system. I also don't support having people appeal to mods via PM as I prefer transparency and I rather not have to sort through appeals and the other messages I get on a almost daily basis.

I think the best idea is a ticketing system like Fighteer mentioned earlier but regardless, I don't think we should be using this thread to talk in depth to talk about possible tech ideas we have no control over.

Macron's notes
N1KF Alleged Number1KirbyFan (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Alleged Number1KirbyFan
#4269: May 6th 2022 at 6:38:00 PM

Thanks for clarifying some of the downsides of Wikipedia's management. I'm not really involved in that wiki, and some of the policies there are more appealing to me in concept.

I agree that having a public method to appeal has its benefits. If there are private appeals, they would be done in addition to the public ones.

The reason I brought up overlapping posts is because a user in the thread expressed that it was hard to follow, and I thought there was some validity in that. If users don't find that to be a problem I suppose it isn't much of a problem.

What I'm hoping to do is bring up some fresh ideas, as that's a way to find and improve things. Wikipedia's system seems refined, like a lot more work has been done in trying to communicate the needs of the wiki.

As I mentioned already, the suspension page explains how people are suspended but not why they need to use the thread as opposed to other methods. I'm already aware of the reasoning, but the average user isn't going to be reading through this thread. I'm asking for more transparency. A good example of this is The Content Policy and the 5P Circuit, which has related info like the history, and an FAQ that explains why the system is in place.

edit: [up] You also need to consider that the people who use the thread are those who are less likely to be alienated by it. There are probably people who noped out after seeing the thread, and may have stayed to appeal had there been an alternative. This is all speculative of course, but I think it makes sense.

Edited by N1KF on May 6th 2022 at 8:40:51 AM

Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#4270: May 6th 2022 at 6:42:11 PM

long story short, if it ain't broke not need to fix it. If you think What to Do If You Are Suspended isn't clear about something, there's a different thread for policy wording.

Edited by Amonimus on May 6th 2022 at 4:42:33 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
N1KF Alleged Number1KirbyFan (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Alleged Number1KirbyFan
#4271: May 6th 2022 at 7:42:16 PM

I mainly suggested improving What to Do If You Are Suspended as an alternative if none of the suggestions provided worked out. But I realize now that it could be fit for another thread.

Fighteer would also prefer a different system, but that would require more influence over the development which people seem to agree can't be done. You could still say that it's broke, and we can't fix it.

It's hard for me to get a grasp what work the developers do on a regular basis. It affects the work that needs to be done on the wiki, so I hope we can constructively find a way to better communicate with the admins.

edit: Changed wording slightly to hopefully better represent Fighteer's point.

Edited by N1KF on May 6th 2022 at 9:54:23 AM

laserviking42 from End-World Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
#4272: May 6th 2022 at 7:50:14 PM

Fighteer didn't exactly agree with you, let's not pretend otherwise. In fact, you're the only one here who feels the system needs to be changed.

I didn't choose the troping life, the troping life chose me
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#4273: May 6th 2022 at 7:50:39 PM

If you have suggestions for improving What to Do If You Are Suspended, feel free to suggest them. I've rewritten that page quite a few times, trying to make it as clear as possible. The instruction for how to reach us is in the very first section, beneath the folder tag.

I agree that the technicals of the site need work, but there's nothing novel about that. Things are way better than they were before the new ownership, but there's a long way to go. C'est la vie.

Edited by Fighteer on May 6th 2022 at 10:51:32 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
N1KF Alleged Number1KirbyFan (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Alleged Number1KirbyFan
#4274: May 6th 2022 at 8:11:10 PM

I suppose what I want I'm looking for is some way to help even more than the Bug Reports and Tech Wishlist. The admins are helping us with the site, so it makes sense that we help them back, right?

For example, I'm working on a personal test site trying to recreate TV Tropes, ideally 2.0, and I hope some of my work can help the admins.

SilverCrown (Private) Relationship Status: Singularity
#4275: May 6th 2022 at 8:45:29 PM

[up] N1KF, are you me? I'm actually doing the exact same thing you are as one of my personal projects. It's been interesting. Although I'm not using PHP and building my own from scratch. grin

That aside, I think the transparency of the Edit Banned thread makes it one of the best appeals solutions, since you are informed of the "charges" against you and have a chance to present your own defense or explain why you did what you did. (Which is a lot more than a lot of sites that show you a ban notice and say "Contact Us" to get unbanned, or ones that don't even bother with that). I'm well aware that the Edit Banned thread isn't a court, but it still allows users to explain what they did so that their suspension can be lifted. Which is the exact point of an appeal and is a lot more than other forums can give you.

Without doing what other forums do and making new technology/opening up several new roles to process appeals (i.e. an arbitrator who takes another look at a mod action, an advocate who posts on behalf of the user who's suspended, and a group of community-elected people who process appeals), I think that the Edit Banned thread is one of the fairest and most transparent ones on the Internet as is.

Edited by SilverCrown on May 6th 2022 at 9:17:33 PM


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