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This thread is for discussing the following topics:

  • Questions and clarifications about the site's rules and policies pertaining to wiki editing, forum posting, trope launching, and so on.
  • If you have an idea for a thread on another part of the forums but aren't sure if creating it would be allowed, feel free to ask here.

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Posts that use this thread in place of the sections listed in the bulleted list above are off-topic.
We're aware that the Edit Banned thread has a Non-Indicative Name, due to it also covering non-editing suspensions. We're not sure whether the name for that thread can even be edited without breaking the special coding that keeps posting restricted to mods and suspended users, so we're leaving it alone for now, because better safe than sorry.
(Edited Mar 28 2024, adding bullet about OTC and amending layout a little)

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 11th 2024 at 3:20:25 AM

mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#3826: Mar 12th 2022 at 3:58:09 PM

I could definitely see that logic being misunderstood and used by other users to cut pages made by people they dislike.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Bisected8 A casual tief of punk from Her Hackette Cave (Primordial Chaos) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
A casual tief of punk
#3827: Mar 12th 2022 at 4:04:03 PM

I agree. If a page is unsalvageable, that's one thing, and I get reverting edits by people who shouldn't have been editing...but deleting a page just because it's damned by association seems silly.

TV Tropes's No. 1 bread themed lesbian. she/her, fae/faer
crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#3828: Mar 14th 2022 at 7:59:17 AM

The logic holds up and has been used several times already, just not stated in the suspension thread. If a page is a stub and only one person has edited that page, but that person is unable to edit, then the page gets cut. The reason why the page is cut is because it is a stub and no one is fixing it. Page creators are responsible for not creating stubs. Other editors coming to fix those articles doesn't mean that the page creator was wrong to create a stub.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#3829: Mar 14th 2022 at 9:09:10 AM

So what counts as a stub? That page already had quite a few entries.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
megagutsman Maverick Hunter. from Dragon Turtle MK.1. (Seven Years' War) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Maverick Hunter.
#3830: Mar 14th 2022 at 9:09:21 AM

I mean, I think we understand that. What I think weirded us was Figtheer using that as a threat. At least I have never seen a page cut being used as a threat before.

Edit:[nja]

Edited by megagutsman on Mar 14th 2022 at 9:09:45 AM

MichaelKatsuro Since: Apr, 2011
#3831: Mar 14th 2022 at 9:11:56 AM

It had very few entries that were in a state to deserve not being deleted or at least commented out.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#3832: Mar 14th 2022 at 9:14:18 AM

When someone is suspended for making a junk page and asks to be unsuspended so they can keep making their junk page, it's a pretty obvious thing to say.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
N1KF Alleged Number1KirbyFan (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Alleged Number1KirbyFan
#3833: Mar 14th 2022 at 8:13:47 PM

[up] crazysamaritan: I'm fine with a messy page being cut for the reasons you stated, but that's not the logic expressed in the threat. Not only did it deny the chance for other people to clean it, but it also implies that the user owns the page, which I assume is not the case even if they were the sole editor.

[up] The edit banned should get users on track with understanding wiki policy, which your post seems to gloss over. Sure, people are clarifying the policy here, but many people in the edit banned thread won't be reading this.

The message could easily be reworded to match wiki policy:

Your fanfic page is not important and I'm going to delete it if you don't show some sign that you understand what I'm talking about.

to:

The fanfic page is not important and a mod will delete it if it isn't cleaned up.

Edited by N1KF on Mar 14th 2022 at 10:15:36 AM

mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#3834: Mar 14th 2022 at 8:21:01 PM

Given that Edit Banned is full of people who don't understand the wiki rules (sometimes willfully, but sometimes genuinely), misleading phrasing can be risky here.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#3835: Mar 15th 2022 at 7:56:44 AM

Here's the problem; to someone obsessing over their own fanfic article, "a mod will delete it if it isn't cleaned up" is a misleading thing to say. It directly contradicts with "The fanfic page is not important" because the editor does think it is important and you're placing the condition on something that the editor cannot affect. You're missing the step of "you must be released before you can clean it up". That's the point of the post; to focus the editor on getting un-suspended.

Please release my suspension so that I can clean up my article.
No, also your article will be deleted unless it is cleaned up.
The obvious response is for the editor to say "I can't clean it up unless you release me."

Please release my suspension so that I can clean up my article.
No, also your article will be deleted unless you address [this point].
The intent is to get the editor to say something that will address the reason for their suspension.

The goal is to redirect the person away from the thing they're obsessing over and towards the message we're trying to convey. Making it sound as if the fanfic article is subject to the same condition as their current suspension is a tactic to make them focus on removing the suspension instead of editing the article. Telling them that the article needs to be edited is counter-productive as it reinforces their obsession over editing the article.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
N1KF Alleged Number1KirbyFan (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
Alleged Number1KirbyFan
#3836: Mar 15th 2022 at 3:48:30 PM

I think two different things are being mixed up here—why the page is being cut, and why the suspension happened.

A solution would be just to make two different statements for these things. To continue with the statement tweaking:

No, you will be suspended until you show you understand the issue, and the page will be cut if there is nobody to clean it.

Yes, this risks fueling the empty requests to end the suspension, but all the relevant info is given and it's up to the user to understand what's happening, and why these things are happening.

Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#3837: Mar 17th 2022 at 9:40:22 AM

WebVideo namespace cleanup is getting pretty heated, and I guess we're now questioning the very The Goals of TV Tropes. As much as I'd like opinions and have a lot of my own, I don't want a back-and-forth about policy on a cleanup thread. Fighteer made his position very clear and I'm not feeling arguing further, but since the mod privileges are being brought up, I would like the rest of the mod team to give an opinion on the topic to put it to rest.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#3838: Mar 17th 2022 at 9:59:19 AM

IDK, I think Fighteer just followed up fairly and things may be progressing more smoothly. In this case I think we're allowed to just disagree with a mod. He's not putting forth a moratorium on these pages or anything yet, though the "as long as I am a moderator" part did muddle things. It would be nice to have other mods weigh in on the discussion just for context though.

Edited by mightymewtron on Mar 17th 2022 at 12:59:39 PM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#3839: Mar 17th 2022 at 10:10:41 AM

[up] That's more what I'm interested in. I actually agree with many things said about the namespace, but if we treat the rules like some religious manuscript (we bluntly disregarded some of previous admin's wishes in a lot of places because they were too restrictive), I have to know if we are really, so I have an understanding what to do in the future and the namespace topic in particular. Since as far as I'm concerned we have about 10 people by now who also can have a say in the matter and I need reassurance in what is even considered debatable so I could follow along.

Edited by Amonimus on Mar 17th 2022 at 8:11:21 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#3840: Mar 17th 2022 at 10:14:18 AM

We've adapted our rules quite a few times over the years, but if anything we've become more strict about troping real people, and the issue with Web Video is that it often devolves into that.

People really want to trope real people. The evidence is overwhelming. But the evidence is also overwhelming that it leads to problems, so we have to put a hard line on it. We aren't going to hold a vote about becoming Real Life Tropes, even if turning into a gossip-and-controversy site would potentially expand our web rankings.

I am completely willing, as a moderator, to draw a hard line in places where it is necessary no matter how unpopular that decision may be.

Edited by Fighteer on Mar 17th 2022 at 1:16:27 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#3841: Mar 17th 2022 at 10:21:12 AM

Agreed, we don't want to turn into the gossip and judgement website. There's enough tabloid trash for that sort of stuff as it is.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Amonimus the "Retromancer" from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the "Retromancer"
#3842: Mar 17th 2022 at 10:23:06 AM

I don't want to trope real people either, and especially discussing real people on article space, but we also haven't been TV Tropes for quite a while.

I'll drop thinking about it entirely if I hear "as a moderator" from a few others, because since I have no experience of certain past problems, I feel I can't participate productively in some forums if my understanding of them is personal.

(Also Conversational Troping at Administrivia.Creator Page Guidelines doesn't seem to fit where this is going?)

Edited by Amonimus on Mar 17th 2022 at 8:51:29 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#3843: Mar 17th 2022 at 10:33:29 AM

I was just lurking for the debate, and I think both sides have good arguments about why these pages should/shouldn't exist. If we could ensure that these pages would only mention Conversational Troping, then I wouldn't see as much cause for alarm. But since we can't ensure that, and never will be, I can see why it's better to just err on the side of caution even if it means not having pages on certain potentially tropeworthy reviewers.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#3844: Mar 17th 2022 at 10:42:28 AM

[up][up] We can certainly evolve as a website, but I think until we've found a way to trope real life people in a responsible and respectful way (and that's a big if), we should not do so.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
GastonRabbit C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
C'est la vie. (he/him)
#3845: Mar 17th 2022 at 10:50:35 AM

I slept through this conversation, but I thought I'd give my own $0.02 on what's been discussed (though I admit I may not be completely awake).

I've seen pages get cut for reason other than a lack of tropable content, such as work pages that are stubs, or tropes that are cut by TRS.

I'm not really even saying this as a moderator; Five Bad Band and Bad Writing (the latter being a redirect to the Writing Pitfall Index, formerly the Bad Writing Index) were cut before I had the ability to cut pages myself despite high inbound counts because the former was determined to not be a real trope, and the latter was being misused as a trope for complaining.

And as for the discussion about troping real people, the problem I have with that is that it often ends up creepy or complainy, and some Creator/ pages have commented-out notices saying not to do it. This is another thing I'm not really saying as a mod; this type of troping has bugged me for quite a while.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 17th 2022 at 12:51:19 PM

I got a rock for Halloween.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#3846: Mar 17th 2022 at 10:52:42 AM

Yes, it tends to turn creepy pretty quickly thanks to tropers doing things like shipping. I've once had to clean up a page for a youtube show featuring kids where said kids were being shipped and rated on cuteness on the YMMV page. We don't want that sort of thing.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#3847: Mar 17th 2022 at 10:53:50 AM

I mean, okay, to be completely fair, real people are shipped together all the time. It's absolutely creepy, especially when they're minors, but it is a legit audience reaction.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#3848: Mar 17th 2022 at 11:01:20 AM

I agree with Warjay. The same way we could theoretically trope non-fiction works about a specific trope, I am theoretically OK with reviewer pages full of Conversational Troping. A "video review", I would think, is a narrative — here is what I thought and why. In addition, they are edited to underscore certain points, differentiating them from stream-of-consciousness blathering on Let's Play or yelling on Twitter.

But I also echo that the site has not so far proven that it is capable of not being messy about real people.

(Also Conversational Troping at Administrivia.Creator Page Guidelines doesn't seem to fit where this is going?)

Creator pages have their own creepy parasocial troping problems, but what differentiates this is that...they aren't required, and there are other things that can go on a creator page trope list. But from what I understand, these video reviewers' trope lists would be comprised nearly entirely of Conversational Troping.

Edited by Synchronicity on Mar 17th 2022 at 1:03:26 PM

mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#3849: Mar 17th 2022 at 11:39:10 AM

Well, not always entirely. It's hard to think of a prolific video reviewer who doesn't also throw in some jokes that rely on dialogue tropes. It's a low bar but it's not as one-note as we're thinking about. Like how a Quinton Reviews video series used LOL, 69.

Edited by mightymewtron on Mar 17th 2022 at 2:39:17 PM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#3850: Mar 17th 2022 at 12:07:09 PM

I wasn't talking about review shows, I was talking about actual kids not playing a character or anything, just regular participants in a Youtube show, being troped as such.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times

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