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(Edited Mar 28 2024, adding bullet about OTC and amending layout a little)

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 11th 2024 at 3:20:25 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#301: Jan 18th 2021 at 7:43:03 AM

I think the issue with the thread-lock was that until you explained the reasoning, nobody actually knew why you guys locked the thread. People were assuming the worst-case scenario.

The fact of the matter is that there were two different groups with different perspectives dealing with the issue at once, and neither side understood why the others were acting the way they were until later.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#302: Jan 18th 2021 at 7:43:14 AM

It’s honestly not the worst idea, that or some kind of situational judgment test to filter out people who are going to cause issues the moment a difficult situation emerges.

Mainly, we managed to convince Eddie that age is no guarantee of emotional maturity.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
VengefulBale Bishie Gijinka Meta Knight from Nowhere Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Bishie Gijinka Meta Knight
#303: Jan 18th 2021 at 7:44:22 AM

My proposition is that any community that decides to have accompanying threads or contact alongside TV Tropes needs to be made aware that what happens on Discord stays on Discord and cannot be used as evidence unless it fulfills one of the above criteria. Failure to do so will see all parties held accountable in some way. As all parties were in this case.

I... Actually like this proposition. I also speak for the other HGS mods here when I say we're fine with that rule and we'll do our best to follow it

Edited by VengefulBale on Jan 18th 2021 at 9:57:17 AM

Prettiest Meta Knight Gijinka, ngl
Zanreo Gizmondo from Glitch City (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Gizmondo
#304: Jan 18th 2021 at 7:50:19 AM

Yeah, I'm fine with that

My favorite failed console tbh
alnair20aug93 🍊orange fursona🧡 from 🐾Furrypines 🇵🇭 (Long Runner) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
🍊orange fursona🧡
#305: Jan 18th 2021 at 7:50:48 AM

Ditto. Same on Twitter and Reddit as well.

ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔|I DO COMMISSIONS|ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#306: Jan 18th 2021 at 7:51:02 AM

Sounds reasonable.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
wingedcatgirl mys. minty from the silly dimension from lurking (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
mys. minty from the silly dimension
#307: Jan 18th 2021 at 7:55:41 AM

(Preface: "We" here refers only to Sylvi&, mostly Sylvi, Ana, and Robin, but in particular not to any minds not part of our system.)

To be honest, we were reluctant to create a Discord for the Murderverse and only did so after repeated requests. We wanted people to use the discussion thread, and we still do not know why people seem so resistant to that — apparently putting it in RP Discussion when all the game threads were in Forum Games was a contributing factor, which is why we have twice hollered to get it moved (though the mods have seemingly decided this won't be happening)... but even then, we make a point of linking to the thread whenever relevant, so players should be able to find it if they want.

That said, having the server has been beneficial — being able to sort conversations into channels allows people to just talk when they feel like it, whereas having one big thread for everything seems to discourage people from bringing up anything insufficiently "important".

But the problems with splitting discussion into two places like that are extremely obvious if you think about it for a minute — hell, what about people who don't have Discord, are we gonna just lock them out of the loop? — and while we have made efforts to mitigate this, they don't seem to have been very successful. e.g. 

So we can certainly see why the mods would consider a rule outright forbidding servers like this... the problem is, it would leave the existing servers in a really awkward place, and seems impossible to enforce anyway.

... And yes, telling people to get a job to deal with their issues is absurd. We're not gonna touch the rest of the insecurities thread talk cause we rarely posted there, but come on.


Lotta posts being made while we type.

One thing that's definitely going to happen is that we're going to make clearer on the Discord that y'all TVT mods legit do not have access to knowledge of things happening there. It seems that a lot of the trouble stemmed from people expecting you to have the same background on Tabby's misbehavior that we had, despite the fact that nobody had ever informed you.

And honestly, we had been considering moving the Murderverse to its own dedicated site even before this happened, just for more control over threads (like on Mafiascum, another Mafia forum, threads get locked during the game Night and editing posts is actually blocked, while private topics are available for scumchat, deadchat, and other necessary purposes), since there's simply no good reason for you mods to give us that control here.

Suddenly I'm... still rotating Fallen London in my mind even though I've stopped actively playing it.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#308: Jan 18th 2021 at 7:59:33 AM

I think the issue with the thread-lock was that until you explained the reasoning, nobody actually knew why you guys locked the thread.

Yeah having taken a look I will say that the lock message wasn’t particularly clear. When OTC has had such locks the lock message generally says that it’s for a cool-down or so the mods can review things.

That still doesn’t justify people spilling into another thread to talk about the locking of the first thread, that’s just an obvious no-no.

Mainly, we managed to convince Eddie that age is no guarantee of emotional maturity.

True, but it may be better than nothing at this point.

My proposition is that any community that decides to have accompanying threads or contact alongside TV Tropes needs to be made aware that what happens on Discord stays on Discord and cannot be used as evidence unless it fulfills one of the above criteria.

My concern with this idea is that the spillover is inevitable. We’re not talking about something like Reddit, the Giant In the Playground forums or the Darth and Droids forums, where the other community is a self-sustaining entity that happens to have overlap. We’re dealing with private communities that have spawned out of TV Tropes and are keeping a foothold here, what happens when they ban someone from the RPG discord-side but that person still posts in the RPG thread TV-Tropes side?

Edit:

hell, what about people who don't have Discord, are we gonna just lock them out of the loop?

Haven’t you already done that by putting your RPG on Discord?

Also I’ve got to ask, how are there people who have TV Tropes access but not discord? They’re both internet platforms, aren’t they? If the answer is that Discord has IP banned said individuals for misconduct or that people are to young to make a Discord account, then I’m not sure if said individuals should be on our forums either.

Edited by Silasw on Jan 18th 2021 at 4:05:20 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
wingedcatgirl mys. minty from the silly dimension from lurking (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
mys. minty from the silly dimension
#309: Jan 18th 2021 at 8:03:44 AM

what happens when they ban someone from the RPG discord-side but that person still posts in the RPG thread TV-Tropes side?

What we were expecting to happen when we did this was that individual GMs would "ban" Tabby from their games, or not, same as individual GMs of non-Murderverse games "ban" people or don't, and this would be accepted by everyone involved.

As you may have noticed, this is not what happened.

Suddenly I'm... still rotating Fallen London in my mind even though I've stopped actively playing it.
Piterpicher Veteran Editor IV from Poland, for real (Series 2) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Veteran Editor IV
#310: Jan 18th 2021 at 8:05:02 AM

Alright, I'll put the insecurities thread on the side. I've heard of clinical depression, but I am not always convinced about it (but again, let's not talk about it here). I suppose we really can't do anything than tell those people to find a therapist.

I could accept an age gate if that's what it comes down to. We have no guarantee it'll work, but hopefully young people have something to occupy themselves with before they're able to post on the forum and be mature enough there.

I guess that proposition for all those external sites and threads is good, what happens out of our threads (especially things that can cause problems here) stays there. Would off-site discussions about wiki articles be acceptable (telling people about an article, asking for help with it, etc.)?

Edited by Piterpicher on Jan 18th 2021 at 5:15:53 PM

Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#311: Jan 18th 2021 at 8:09:04 AM

What we were expecting to happen when we did this was that individual G Ms would "ban" Tabby from their games, or not, same as individual G Ms of non-Murderverse games "ban" people or don't, and this would be accepted by everyone involved.

This is where my ignorance of the RPG side of the forum shows, if a GM bans someone from their RPG on here how the hell does that work? Do they inform the TV Tropes moderators who then have to make a note of it and potentially enforce it?

Would off-site discussions about wiki articles be acceptable (telling people about an article, asking for help with it, etc.)?

There’s a big difference between talking about TV Tropes off-site and running a shadow section of TV Tropes, it’s only the later there’s an issue with.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
wingedcatgirl mys. minty from the silly dimension from lurking (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
mys. minty from the silly dimension
#312: Jan 18th 2021 at 8:17:19 AM

how are there people who have TV Tropes access but not discord?

Don't want to make another account/install another chat client, banned from Discord specifically by their parents, probably many other reasons. We assume by default that there exist people who have X but not Y for all values of X and Y, because every time we have assumed otherwise it has turned out false.

if a GM bans someone from their RPG on here how the hell does that work
In our experience — the GM says "no, we don't want you here", and the user accepts that and does not post in the thread anymore.

We don't know how it would be handled if the user refused to acknowledge the "ban".

Suddenly I'm... still rotating Fallen London in my mind even though I've stopped actively playing it.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#313: Jan 18th 2021 at 8:31:14 AM

Forum Game Roleplays have always weirded me out more than anything else on Forum Games. They always felt and feel even more now like cliques and complicated, expansive groups that have offsite discussions and the like. I'm not shocked that this sort of stuff happens in them, though I also know it's probably a rarity.

In general though something about them always made me a little uneasy, but it might just be that I'm an introvert who only enjoys the games I can jump into and leave when I want, like "fight the above avatar" or "the tower". But even then it seems that since I'm not involved in these bigger RP groups nobody there really knows me, and so I still feel awkward even in the other games. I'm out of the loop.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 18th 2021 at 11:34:57 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#314: Jan 18th 2021 at 8:39:04 AM

We assume by default that there exist people who have X but not Y for all values of X and Y, because every time we have assumed otherwise it has turned out false.

But then why move an RPG to Discord if you believe so strongly in not disconnecting said people? The idea to host TV Tropes RP Gs on Discord isn’t one that came from the site’s moderator team, it’s one that came from the G Ms of said RP Gs.

Also “banned from Discord specifically by their parents” is a reason that sets of a ton of alarm-bell for me. Because it seems to suggest the TV Tropes role-playing areas are being by kids to get around their parents not wanting them interacting with certain online groups. The liability issues for this site if that’s the reality of things....

In our experience — the GM says "no, we don't want you here", and the user accepts that and does not post in the thread anymore.

So GM’s are self-declared moderators over RPG threads they’ve made, with no involvement from the actual TV Tropes moderator team in the granting of said ability to ban people from threads?

This gets back to the thread ownership problem, nowhere else on the forum does a thread-maker get that level of ownership over a thread. I’ve seen it on other sites, but the G Ms were known to the site’s moderator team and watched to make sure they didn’t misuse said power. There’s not the capacity to do that here.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
wingedcatgirl mys. minty from the silly dimension from lurking (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
mys. minty from the silly dimension
#315: Jan 18th 2021 at 8:46:15 AM

You're right that bringing discussion to Discord is inherently fragmenting, but as we said, there had been repeated requests. We've tried to make sure important information gets back to TVT but with, obviously, very limited success.

Discord in particular is sort of infamous for being a hellscape of badly-moderated servers — "Discord mods are all pedophiles" is basically a meme right now — so some parents would see a need ban their children from Discord in particular. There's a reason we avoid large Discord servers for large communities. also some parents are just bad and doing bad things for bad reasons but we really have no control over that

And... yeah, we're seeing the problems with this system of "self-moderation", but that really does seem to be how it's set up around here. It seems to be relying on the assumption that everyone involved is well-intentioned and we don't know how we're supposed to handle it when people come in that aren't.

Suddenly I'm... still rotating Fallen London in my mind even though I've stopped actively playing it.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#316: Jan 18th 2021 at 8:49:24 AM

Even if we could be invited to these Discord servers to monitor them for misbehavior, we have neither the time nor the inclination to do so, and frankly we don't have the need 99% of the time. It's literally pointless for TVT mods to sit through pages and pages of Discord chat to see if people are breaking some rule or other.

This is part of why it is my strong opinion that hosting RPs is fundamentally incompatible with the design of the TV Tropes forums.

The "age-blocked from Discord" thing is an enormous red flag for me. Do these kids' parents know they are hanging out on TV Tropes? I doubt it. We don't ask for any sort of age verification to get a TV Tropes account, and we've managed to stay out of trouble... barely. That can't last forever. The first time we get involved in a criminal sexual assault case involving a minor, we could be torched.

"We need to let people use TVT forums to role-play so they can get around parental controls" is not a convincing argument. It's a fucking terrifying argument.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 18th 2021 at 11:49:50 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#317: Jan 18th 2021 at 8:52:26 AM

Honestly, age restriction isn't such a terrible idea. Even the Neopets forums are age-restricted, and even then they're extremely heavily moderated- threads sometimes get deleted in a matter of minutes if the mods don't like 'em. Obviously we don't need or want any moderation that's that extreme, but my point is, the age restriction means the only minors allowed are the ones who got parental permission and sent in a fax (or, ya know, changed their age, but what can you do about that?).

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Zanreo Gizmondo from Glitch City (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Gizmondo
#318: Jan 18th 2021 at 8:52:54 AM

Also, the RPs themselves don't get "moved to Discord", it's mainly discussion (and some unrelated offtopic general talk)

Edited by Zanreo on Jan 18th 2021 at 5:53:22 PM

My favorite failed console tbh
wingedcatgirl mys. minty from the silly dimension from lurking (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
mys. minty from the silly dimension
#319: Jan 18th 2021 at 8:52:59 AM

To be clear, right now we're thinking of a user with very blatantly Abusive Parents. Their parents have banned them from most of the internet, but somehow TVT slipped through.

Edited by wingedcatgirl on Jan 18th 2021 at 10:53:57 AM

Suddenly I'm... still rotating Fallen London in my mind even though I've stopped actively playing it.
Piterpicher Veteran Editor IV from Poland, for real (Series 2) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Veteran Editor IV
#320: Jan 18th 2021 at 8:57:00 AM

While I don't know if I'll consider banning off the internet abuse (though even after getting a video game time restriction at a young age, my parents would still let me use the Internet), it does sound like running around the restriction if it's specifically TV Tropes (unless the parents believe this website has the ideal peer group or educational value to allow an exception for their kid).

Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#321: Jan 18th 2021 at 8:59:07 AM

we're thinking of a user with very blatantly Abusive Parents.

As difficult as that may be to deal with, we aren't here to right injustices. We're just running a wiki.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#322: Jan 18th 2021 at 8:59:27 AM

You're right that bringing discussion to Discord is inherently fragmenting, but as we said, there had been repeated requests.

I understand that, but you can say no repeatedly. My main point is that some people in this thread have acted as if TV Tropes would be at fault for people not being able to access RP Gs if we didn’t allow multi-site communities, when I feel it would sit with the G Ms who would decide to host their RPG in Discord.

We don’t have other active multi-site communities, the TV Tropes subreddit doesn’t have its own thread on the forums, the moderator team at Darths and Droids don’t get to ban people from the Darths and Droids thread. Even where we have threads that observe other sites they’re not about the community there, they’re about some product (normally a webcomic) hoasted there.

but that really does seem to be how it's set up around here.

I don’t know TV Tropes full forum history, but I suspect what you’re seeing as the way things are set up is much less deliberate than that, and more akin to how things have grown while the TV Tropes management have been focused on other things.

To be clear, right now we're thinking of a user with very blatantly Abusive Parents. Their parents have banned them from most of the internet, but somehow TVT slipped through.

Said child should be pointed to relevant child support authorities in their country, not snuck around behind people’s back based on information you have no way of verifying.

Edited by Silasw on Jan 18th 2021 at 5:02:17 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#323: Jan 18th 2021 at 8:59:36 AM

[up][up][up]If I’m not mistaken, the troper in question is high-school age, which in my opinion is old enough for almost any of the sites they’ve mentioned being banned from. They’ve also indicated far worse actions from their parents.

[up][up]Agreed.

Edited by ShinyCottonCandy on Jan 18th 2021 at 12:00:51 PM

My musician page
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#324: Jan 18th 2021 at 9:04:07 AM

We are not a resource for abused children to escape such abuse, this is the mental health advise situation but 100 times bigger.

We can point said children to help, users in the child’s country can ever contact said authorities themselves, but we very much should not be acting as someone kind of internet children’s-services.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#325: Jan 18th 2021 at 9:05:15 AM

I think one thing that can easily be forgotten with all this stuff is that our site is just here to be informative and entertaining on the subject of media tropes. It's so easy to get sidetracked with drama and roleplays and the like, but in the end we're a wiki, and we're not equipped to deal with things like roleplay drama or real-life personal issues.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall

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