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Scope of Rainbow Lens (supernatural-only)?

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mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
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#1: Oct 22nd 2020 at 12:33:05 PM

Spinning off a discussion to decide the scope of Rainbow Lens. The description defines it as "story that mimics a Coming-Out Story using supernatural elements" but the examples are a bit broader and refer to any case where fans read LGBT subtext into a character's story, whether it mimics coming out or not. So do we include any case of fans reading a character as being LGBT due to canon evidence?

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WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
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#2: Oct 22nd 2020 at 12:36:15 PM

That's what I think it should be, yeah. I even remember the TLP discussion on it; Here. Even the sponsor claimed it "doesn't have to be about a superpower". It seems more just about "characters who can be interpreted as LGBT allegories", not something supernatural-specific.

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mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
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#3: Oct 22nd 2020 at 1:55:15 PM

But the point is that there's an "allegory" component, right? So for example, the headcanon that Timmy Turner is a trans boy wouldn't count because it's not necessarily about his character arc or anything (he doesn't really have one). People just interpret some recurring gags as evidence that he's trans.

For a non-supernatural but still allegorical example, I can think of the Dexter's Laboratory episode "A Boy Named Sue." It shows that Mandark's given name is Susan and he was forced to dress as a girl by his hippie parents, until Dexter makes fun of him and Mandark transitions into both his evil persona and a more masculine costume, including his new name. He's portrayed as a cis boy forced to be gender nonconforming but just change a single line and you'd think it's a story about being trans. So that would still fit, correct?

(I'm using mostly trans characters here because a lot of the non-allegorical examples of characters being gay fits audience reactions like Ho Yay already.)

Edited by mightymewtron on Oct 22nd 2020 at 4:55:52 AM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#4: Oct 22nd 2020 at 1:58:26 PM

Right. The idea is that a character gets interpreted with LGBT subtext by the fans based on things in the work.

One example that isn't even about an actual in-universe character is "Amy Loves Spiders" from Doki Doki Literature Club!, a poem commonly interpreted as being about a homophobic narrator and a gay girl. It's not supernatural in the slightest, but involves bigotry, assuming that being friends with Amy would make someone "like spiders", and Natsuki confirming that the poem's narrator is meant to be in the wrong.

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mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
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#5: Oct 22nd 2020 at 2:01:32 PM

The idea is that a character gets interpreted with LGBT subtext by the fans based on things in the work.

So the Timmy Turner example would count then? It's less a deliberate allegorical reading and more "this character's parents expected him to be a girl, dressed him as a girl as a child, his voice is remarked upon as girly, he experienced severe distress when transformed into a girl, and in the alternate universe where he didn't exist his parents had a daughter who looks identical to him." It's still all based on stuff from the work, but it's not read as an allegory, more an Alternate Character Interpretation because it's very possible that the character just is trans in this reading.

Edited by mightymewtron on Oct 22nd 2020 at 5:03:18 AM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#6: Oct 22nd 2020 at 2:03:37 PM

I mean, I mis-explained it, I don't think Timmy would qualify under the current intended definition as it is meant to be about allegories...I think?

I don't know honestly. IDK if it's just any LGBT fan-interpretation, or specific to character allegories.

But I do know the focus on super-powers is way off.

Edited by WarJay77 on Oct 22nd 2020 at 5:03:56 AM

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mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
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#7: Oct 22nd 2020 at 2:05:28 PM

Yeah, maybe my title was misleading. The concern is more if it's just about allegorical readings or if it includes readings that may suggest the character could be LGBT in the timeline - no metaphors or anything.

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WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#8: Oct 22nd 2020 at 2:07:55 PM

I was referring to the trope's description actually. It's very narrow, and misleading.

But we can't really fix it until we decide if the trope is about any fan-interpretation, or about allegories that may not have been intentional.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#9: Oct 22nd 2020 at 2:08:29 PM

Honestly, I feel like the intent behind this trope is a little muddy. The laconic implies the parallels to a Coming-Out Story should be deliberate, but it's a YMMV trope. And the name seems like it's about queer readings of story elements in general.

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#10: Oct 22nd 2020 at 3:02:59 PM

Back when this was in TLP I thought this could really be worked into something objective, but it is what it is now.

Regardless, I don't think it applies to all LGBT readings. The queer reading doesn't have to be about something supernatural, but there still has to be a metaphor. Even if it's, like, liking raisins in your cookies when all your other friends like chocolate chips, or being in the ostracized glee club. Yes, Glee deadass once said by being in glee club you are a minority...

Edited by Synchronicity on Oct 22nd 2020 at 10:21:20 AM

ccorb from A very hot place Since: May, 2020 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
#11: Oct 22nd 2020 at 3:17:51 PM

[up] Those metaphors are often seen in children's books these days when trying to explain tolerance in the context of LGBTQ issues. There's a book about a blue crayon who was born a red crayon, and A Day in the Life of Marlon Bundo has the animals confront the Mike Pence expy by mentioning things that make them different, such as reading a book from end to beginning.

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Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#12: Oct 22nd 2020 at 3:22:11 PM

[up]But is it a good example if that's the intended reading? (There are quite a few examples where the gay metaphor is explicit/intended, which is why its status as an Audience Reaction perpetually confuzzles me.)

Edited by Synchronicity on Oct 22nd 2020 at 10:23:42 AM

ccorb from A very hot place Since: May, 2020 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
#13: Oct 22nd 2020 at 3:34:32 PM

If you don't know what the latter is, it's a children's book written by the writing staff of Last Week Tonight with John Oliver to mock Mike Pence's support of the religious, anti-LGBTQ organization Focus On the Family (who also created Adventures in Odyssey) by essentially making up a story about his daughter's pet rabbit falling in love with another male rabbit, despite the opposition of the Pence-esque beetle in charge.

[nja]'d.

Edited by ccorb on Oct 22nd 2020 at 6:35:46 AM

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mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
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#14: Oct 22nd 2020 at 3:34:40 PM

Marlon Bundo wouldn't count as the main plot is explicitly about gay love and homophobia. There's no alternate reading. It's about boy bunnies marrying boy bunnies.

Edited by mightymewtron on Oct 22nd 2020 at 6:35:16 AM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#15: Oct 22nd 2020 at 3:34:44 PM

The issue is, to make it objective we'd need to assume authorial intent. Some examples you can say were intended as allegories, but not all of them, and there'd be too much confusion if it was in Main.

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ccorb from A very hot place Since: May, 2020 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
#16: Oct 22nd 2020 at 3:38:24 PM

The story itself wasn't an example. The metaphors his animal friends make are an example of using metaphors to compare what makes you different.

Rock'n'roll never dies!
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#17: Oct 22nd 2020 at 3:43:23 PM

[up][up]Yeah, that's fair. I just think there's a difference between "this secret was intended to be a gay metaphor", "fans read a gay metaphor from an unrelated struggle", and "fans read a character as gay, in general."

IDK, I'm thinking specifically of Karolina on Runaways, where her manifesting alien powers dovetailed nearly exactly with her Coming-Out Story and accepting both is a whole thing. That seems like a totally different thing from "Are Elsa's ice powers a metaphor for being in the closet?"note 

Edited by Synchronicity on Oct 22nd 2020 at 10:44:38 AM

raspberryred99 pobody's nerfect Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
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#18: Oct 23rd 2020 at 4:22:44 PM

Another thing about the description of Rainbow Lens is that it mentions in the first paragraph that the trait must be kept secret and could get them ostracized, when many examples do not fit those criteria.

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Twiddler (On A Trope Odyssey)
#19: Oct 23rd 2020 at 5:49:05 PM

I don't think that's actually necessarily part of the definition, I think that's an Example as a Thesis.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#20: Oct 23rd 2020 at 6:00:00 PM

That's the biggest issue with the trope. The description makes it seem way more narrow than it is.

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