This looks more like an unclear name problem. I'll open this.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Gentleman Troper!
Yeah, that's a bad name. This 20-year-old movie just isn't well-known enough to base a trope name on (when I first saw the trope, I thought it was about the guy from The Untouchables).
I'd say Jackie Robinson Story has the same issue, as I have no idea who Jackie Robinson is.
Anyway, +1 for rename. I suppose this is the "plot" version of Real Men Wear Pink, so maybe we can work with that?
Edited by Spark9 on Nov 17th 2020 at 3:41:54 AM
Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!
Support a rename. Not sure what to rename it to.
Rock'n'roll never dies!
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Hell, even Real Men Wear Pink might need some TRS, how many times has it been taken literally? Oh well, that's an issue for another thread.
As for this, a rename might do.
I'd like to apologize for all this.
Semain Calm
I agree with changing the name; "Billy Elliot" is not something that has any connection to anything in my mind.
For a replacement name, maybe something like, I dunno, "Boys Don't Dance" or something? Look, it's not a great name, I know. I just want to bounce off ideas.
As for what Spark said about Jackie Robinson Story having a similar issue, I feel that the real life story of Jackie Robinson is well known enough in America at least for people to get an idea of what the trope means.
and the public won't dwell on my transmission cause it wasn't televised.
How about Real Men Dont Dance Ballet or something.
Rock'n'roll never dies!
Gentleman Troper!
I doubt that, honestly. That Other Wiki shows about two dozen famous people by that name. It reminds me of when we had a trope named "Christie Time" and it turns out there are half a dozen different famous authors named "Christie" and they all lived in a different time, too.
Anyway, that's for another thread. Getting back on topic, the name "Billy Elliot" can refer to a contemporary film composer; an early-20th-century cowboy actor; a NASCAR champion; an Irish paramilitary; a World War I ace; an Australian horror writer; and about a dozen policians. Yeah...
Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!
I'm helping!
Even if it really is well known enough in America, there's still the rest of the world to consider.
Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.
Yeah, I think a rename would help here.
I asked this in the Trope Talk thread
, but couldn't we also rely on irl perceptions of certain occupations for context? In the "uncertain" folder there are quite a few performing arts examples. Due to tropes like Always Camp, All Gays Love Theater, etc. I think we can safely assume they are also seen as feminine within the work.
Edited by Synchronicity on Nov 17th 2020 at 5:59:57 PM
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
Rename to something like... Gender Role Subversion or Gender Defying Hobby. I dunno. Gender roles are stupid and getting surprised at stuff like this is exactly why it's stupid.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Looking through the wick check, the vast majority of examples (mostly in the "unclear" folder) seem like correct usage, except for the fact that they don't state explicitly what the gender assumption is. This seems like a We All Live in America problem where tropers are assuming cultural context; not sure how a rename will fix that.
Edit: digging through the wick check, I see little misuse, nor many severe ZC Es. The context issues seem to consist of examples not explicitly stating what hobby is feminine, even though most of the hobbies consist of things that are spelled out explicitly in Billy Eliot Plot's description as feminine: ballet and related hobbies, music and the performing arts, etc. If you just added ",a feminine hobby," after each stated hobby the most of these would be fine, and honestly adding that seems like unnecessary Word Cruft to me.
Examples from the "unclear" folder that seem ok to me:
- Oop North: Parodied by Monty Python (apart from their reuse of "Four Yorkshiremen" from At Last the 1948 Show) in the "Northern Playwright" sketch on Flying Circus, with the oft-seen trope of the father rejecting his son for betraying his background and pursuing a different life... only the father's profession is writing plays for the London theatre, and the son's betrayal consisted of moving to Yorkshire to become a coal miner. Even funnier in that the entire sketch is an inverse "Billy Elliot" Plot, with the father wearing shirtsleeves and braces and speaking with a Yorkshire accent, while his son wears a suit and tie ("It's the only thing I own besides the coveralls!") Inverted example, the character embraces a manly working class lifestyle instead of an effete intellectual one
Graham Chapman: Hampstead wasn't good enough for you, was it? You had to go poncin' off to Barnsley! You and your coal-mining friends!
- Open-Minded Parent: In Lincoln Gets Limber, Lincoln discovers that he likes doing gymnastics, but he hides it from everybody, even his parents, except for his schoolmates that are also in his gymnastics class by claiming that he's actually doing dodgeball. Two weeks later, Rita finds out when she goes to pick him up from the Royal Woods sports center, which prompts Lincoln to also tell the truth to Lynn Sr. that same night. While both of them are a bit upset that Lincoln lied to them about what he was really doing, they allow him to continue gymnastics because they're glad that he found a sport that he likes doing for regular exercise. They also promise not to tell his sisters or anybody else about it until he's ready to tell them. Gymnastics is often considered girly; the secrecy implies he has concerns about this
- Saying Too Much: This was common when he was on The Daily Show, too. Several installments of "Even Stevphen" ended with him and Steve Carell having turned the topical "debate" of the day into a thinly-veiled or not-at-all-veiled discussion of their personal lives.
Steve: [on why Elian Gonzalez shouldn't go back to Cuba] Well, isn't it obvious, Stephen? A delicate boy like that shouldn't be with his father. I mean, think about it. If he goes there and lives with his father, you know what he's gonna hear. "No, Elian, Daddy can't go camping this summer, things are just too crazy at work," or, "No son of mine is going to take pottery class," or, "Why aren't you tougher? You get beat up in school, you fight back! You don't go crying to the principal like a wussy little girl! Suck it up! Suck it up! Suck it up, Steve!"Arts are often considered unmanly or useless
- Surprisingly Normal Backstory: Many of the young mages in the Circle of Magic series had unhappy childhoods before being recruited by their mentors (imprisoned for theft, thought insane and sent to an Orphanage of Fear, orphaned in a shipwreck or plague)— so in the first book of the sequel series it's somewhat of a surprise that Sandry's future student is a relatively well-adjusted son of a police family whose greatest conflict is that he would rather become a dancer than join the police. Dancing vs being in the police seems like a clear gender contrast
- Characters.The Cleveland Show: Decorated cakes and later pole danced in "Wheel of Family!", Had a Quincenera in "Wide World of Clevland Show", and became a fan of Justin Bieber in "The Men in Me". Cleveland is frequently embarassed by this. Seems like Cleveland is embarassed by the character's feminine behavior
- Characters.High School Musical:
- How the Be Yourself message manifests itself in Troy, especially since his father is the basketball team's coach and a former player. Zero-Context Example.
- He's furious at Troy for auditioning for the musical instead of focusing completely on basketball. Even in the third film, when he's accepted singing as a hobby, he's not happy to learn Troy's up for a scholarship at Juilliard. He does come around in the end and cheers with the rest of the audience when Troy announces he's gonna stick to basketball and singing both. Performing arts vs sports is the classic feminine hobby vs masucline hobby conflict
- Characters.Jem: His father hated him being a musician. Riot joined the military but deserted to pursue his music. The consequences caused his dad to disown him. Music is much less manly than being in the military, though the fact that he deserted is a complicating factor
- Characters.The Legend Of Heroes Trails Of Cold Steel Class VII: No pun intended. Friction with his dad over his less-than-manly hobbies is a big part of his character arc in the first game, see Jock Dad, Nerd Son below. Needs more context but describes the trope
- Characters.Persona 4 The Investigation Team: Played with, in that Kanji's mother is entirely supportive of his endeavors - it's his deceased father's advice to be strong as a man (which Kanji later admits that he misinterpreted) and the teasing from his classmates that prompt him to try and hide his talents away. Could use more context but describes the basic conflict
- Characters.School Of Rock: Thanks to Adaptation Expansion in the musical, he's given his own subplot concerning the long line of manly football players in his family and his refusal to be one as well. More context is needed but describes basic plot
- Characters.Trails Series Erebonia Thors Class VII: No pun intended. Friction with his dad over his less-than-manly hobbies is a big part of his character arc in the first game, see Jock Dad, Nerd Son below. Violates the rule that "Examples should not point to other examples for context. They should stand on their own." But describes basic trope correctly
- Creator.Brian Blessed: Inverted. BLESSED's father was staunchly against his son following in his footsteps and working in the coal mine, and was deeply relieved when his son decided to try his luck on the stage. Performing arts are the classic feminine hobby
- Fanfic.Lincoln Gets Limber:
- Lincoln hides the fact that he's taking gymnastics from his family and friends not involved in gymnastics by claiming he signed up for a dodgeball team. His parents and friends do eventually find out though, are accepting of it, and promise to not tell anybody else until Lincoln is comfortable with it. Gymnastics is typically stereotyped as girly.
- Artie, the only other boy in Lincoln's gymnastics class, tells him that he went through a similar situation with his own father. When Artie's father found out about a month after he started gymnastics, he wasn't too pleased with it at first but came around to accept it. Artie being the only other boy in Lincoln's gymnastics class implies gender roles.
- This is lampshaded by Chris, the gymnastics coach, who isn’t surprised that Lincoln lied about what sport he was really taking to his parents because Lincoln’s not the first guy he’s known to have done so out of fear his family and friends would mock him for it. Gymnastics is considered girly, the fact that boys are worried about being mocked for it backs this up
- Fanfic.Next Level Nights After Dreams: Part of Victor's backstory. He wanted to be a figure skater despite his father's desire for him to work at the town steel mill, along with his father's passionate hatred for skating in general. Figure skating is commonly considered girly, example shows conflict between parent and son
- Film.Dead Poets Society: With acting apparently being the girly thing here. Gets a pretty Downer Ending — sure, Neil was able to prove once and for all that he can hit it out of the park as an actor, but his father then follows by stomping down on him so hard that Neil decides blowing his brains out is the better solution. More context is needed, but shows conflict between the father and son with girly hobby.
- Film.High School Musical: Troy started to gain interest in Drama/Theatre. His father, the coach of East High's basketball team, wants him to focus on his duty as the team captain. Performance arts are considered feminine
- Literature.The Shepherds Crown: Geoffrey, the young man who wants to be a witch. No mention of whether society has gender roles against his desire.
- Manga.Otomen: Slight variation in that its Asuka's mom who's pushing him to be manly. Zero-Context Example but implies correct usage
- Recap.Monty Pythons Flying Circus S 1 E 2: Inverted in one sketch; instead of a coal mining father with black lung disapproving of his son going into theater, it's a playwright father with writer's cramp disapproving of his son working in the coal mines. Theater vs. working in a coal mine is the classic feminine profession/masculine profession conflict
Father: There's nowt wrong wi' gala luncheons, lad! AND DON'T YOU FORGET IT!.Son: There's more to life than culture! There's smoke and dirt and good honest work!Father: Get out! Get out, you labourer!
- Series.Monty Pythons Flying Circus: "Our Ken" starts out with a well-dressed young man coming home to see his rough Northern father and loving mother. His father is enraged that his son doesn't think much of his career as a playwright, and ran off to become a coal miner instead. Theater/intellectual activities vs manual labor is the classic feminine careen/masculine career contrast
"There's more to life than culture! There's smoke and dirt and good honest sweat.""Get out! Get out, ya labourer! There's an idea there. Get agent on t' phone."
- Series.Please Like Me: Parodied. Josh orchestrates a role play of Arnold coming out to his dad, which involves Arnold singing while Alan pretends to be the disappointed dad who's so moved by his son's performance that he gradually comes around and accepts him. Do the disapproval stem from gender roles?
- Series.Popular: Josh: School Play or Big Game ? Zero-Context Example.
- Series.Ru Pauls Drag Race: Granted, the queens are all adults, but oh the daddy issues. Zero-Context Example, but knowing the work it definitely fits
- Series.Switched At Birth: A minor one, where John prefers Toby's baseball to his music as hobbies and professions. Needs more context but sets up the basic trope
- WesternAnimation.The Book Of Life: Manolo Sanchez wants to become a musician, while his father Carlos wants him to become a bullfighter. Even though Manolo does have the skills of a bullfighter, he refuses to kill a bull, even in the Land Of The Unremembered, where he had to fight a hundred bulls that all morphed into one gigantic bull. Eventually, Carlos sees for himself that his son does much better as a singer when the song of apology that Manolo sings for the bulls that were slaughtered by the Sanchez family is so moving that it just turns the gigantic bull into a pile of flower petals. Shows the classic contrast of artsy (feminine) vs. physical (masculine) hobby
- WesternAnimation.King Of The Hill: A frequent source of conflict between Bobby and Hank. A variation occurs in the episode "Goodbye Normal Jeans" where Bobby excels in Home Ec skills; Hank becomes supportive because he enjoys the fruits of Bobby's labor, but Peggy becomes more and more distraught when he consistently outshines her in homemaking. More context is needed, seems like a played with example but gets at the gist of the main trope (conflict between father and son over son's feminine hobbies).
- WesternAnimation.Sing: Johnny tries to hide his love of music from his father Marcus, who pushes Johnny to participate as a lookout and a getaway driver in the heists Marcus' gang of gorillas commits. After Johnny misses a heist (due to having to practice for the show) and inadvertently causes Marcus to be arrested, Marcus dismisses Johnny as a failure and a disappointment. He has a change of heart though, when he sees Johnny performing on the broadcast of the talent show, and realizes that Johnny has a natural talent and passion for music. Regretting the cruel words he said to Johnny earlier, Marcus breaks out of prison and shows up at the theater to reconcile with his son, apologizing and telling Johnny how proud he is of his son. Contrast between music (girly hobby) and getaway driving (practical, more physical activity)
- WesternAnimation.Sofia The First: In "Lord of the Rink", Prince Hugo becomes interested in figure skating but feels pressured into playing ice hockey to please his friends and his father. In the end, they eventually accept him. Figure skating is much girlier than ice hockey (violent contact sport)
Edited by naturalironist on Nov 17th 2020 at 4:11:21 AM
"It's just a show; I should really just relax"
Now we're so young, but we're probably gonna die
Going to clear up that the Simpsons example is also misuse. Krusty's father wants him to be a rabbi instead of a clown because he thinks life is serious and not all fun and games, with no mention of gender roles.
The things in my dreams wish they could chase me!
Could be worse
Maybe it would work better if it was described as a Doing What You Love Plot, where the story is about the conflict between the wishes of the child and the expectations of the parental figure.
In that case, the qualification of the "is this considered feminine" can be skipped (along with its Unfortunate Implications)
Everything can be found on the Internet... except common sense.
Maintenance?
Sparks 9 has proved that not only is the name unclear, but Billy Elliot also fails the One Mario Limit. For reference, here is the page: Billy Elliot (disambiguation).
Good idea. The current definition may be too narrow and is prone to cultural myopia. Gender roles aren't the same everywhere.
Edited by LaundryPizza03 on Nov 17th 2020 at 6:27:11 AM
I'm back!
I think broadening to remove the gender role requirement is diluting the original meaning of the trope a little too much. It also feels unwarranted, given that as has so elegantly clarified, a lot of the 'unclear' examples actually do have gender roles baked in them. Although these are not not explicitly stated in the example, we have to consider that things like ballet, theater, and figure skating are mentioned in the description of "Billy Elliot" Plot.
For example, take High School Musical. Mr. Bolton never actually says "Shut up, Troy, Drama Club is for sissies," but there's a definite contrast between his conventional dad coach vibe and the masculinity of the jocks on the basketball team vs. the drama club's frou frou.
Edited by Synchronicity on Nov 17th 2020 at 12:34:29 PM
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire
After the rename, it would be good to move some of the hobby examples (both fictional and real life) from Real Men Wear Pink there.
Kirby is awesome.
I disagree about removing the gender role requirement. That would make the trope too broad. A more general "parents disapprove of child's passion" would be a supertrope, if we don't have that already.
As for name ideas...Disapproved Feminine Hobby? Dad Dislikes Girly Hobbies?
So many similar tropes got mentioned that I guess we can just merge, actually.
I'd like to apologize for all this.
With Real Men Wear Pink or Fantasy-Forbidding Father? Those are characterization tropes. This is a plot trope.
Edited by Synchronicity on Nov 18th 2020 at 5:34:31 PM
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Real Men Wear Pink is certainly distinct, but I disagree on Fantasy-Forbidding Father, since both Fantasy-Forbidding Father (which is flexible enough to allow relatives other than fathers) and "Billy Elliot" Plot involve a relative disliking certain hobbies. The main distinction I see is that "Billy Elliot" Plot only applies to feminine hobbies, while Fantasy-Forbidding Father can involve the relative disliking it if a child enjoys any kind of hobby they don't like themselves.
Fantasy-Forbidding Father also has several times more wicks than "Billy Elliot" Plot (765 vs. 103).
Edited by GastonRabbit on Nov 19th 2020 at 1:22:59 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
I'm not sure this is a valid comparison, considering that a big part of why this thread exists is that "Billy Elliot" Plot is a terrible name - something that often goes hand in hand with low wicks.
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
FFF also includes "I'd love to do it myself, but I need to provide for the family, not chase dreams. You need to learn the same thing." That's distinct from "this isn't appropriate for [gender role]."
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Crown Description:
Most examples for Billy Elliot Plot fail to explain how the disapproval stems from gender roles, or what the gender roles are.
The "Billy Elliot" Plot is when a boy has a feminine hobby but someone else wants him to be manly. However, a lot of examples don't explain whether the disapproval stems from gender roles or what gender roles are.
The second problem is that the name doesn't indicate its meaning; the reference to the film Billy Elliot is obscure and breaks the core policy about tropes named after works or characters.
I've compiled a wick check of 52 random examples and determined that only 6 examples were sufficient, with 38 low-context examples, 10 Zero Context Examples, and 2 misuses.