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Game Breaker and Tier Induced Scrappy cleanup

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DarkPaladinX Since: Sep, 2009 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#1: Oct 8th 2020 at 9:39:30 AM

So I was suspended from editing several Tv tropes pages for an unknown amount of time for my bad grammar and was getting help on several of my past edits with my grammar (and trying to improve on this). However, after looking through some examples of several Game-Breaker and Tier Induced Scrappy YMMV pages (they have their own separate pages). I've came across several problems with them:

  • Some of these pages uses a lot of Word Cruft and technical jargon and terminology that an average reader may not understand. When I was getting grammatical proofreading some of m past edits in the GameBreaker.Epic Seven, the troper who was giving feedback to my grammatical errors wasn't able to understand some of the terminology used for Epic Seven due to not being familiar with the gameplay.
  • A lot of the examples in the Game-Breaker and Tier Induced Scrappy pages tend to be Wall of Text that is very too detailed and specific for an average reader to understand. Using the said GameBreaker.Epic Seven example, a good amount of examples are very detailed and very lengthily in their examples to the point that an average reader might be confused what s/he is reading about. And it's not just the Epic Seven examples I've mentioned, the GameBreaker.Fate Grand Order had similar problems with the Epic Seven examples.
  • In many multiplayer video games, developers will often make balance adjustments and changes to powerful characters, units, or factions depending on how meta defining the said unit, faction, character is. Because of this, it is very hard to keep up and update several information about the metagame of several pages to the point that many of the information in the Tier Induced Scrappy and Game-Breaker pages becomes very irrelevant. Also, some video game pages have Game-Breaker and Tier Induced Scrappy pages that doesn't really have multiplayer components (i.e. Fate/Grand Order does not have any multiplayer functions and it's generally turned based single player progression of your favorite characters), or games that have co-op functionality just to beat hard content (i.e. Dragalia Lost).

Because of this, I feel that the Tier Induced Scrappy and Game-Breaker pages may need some cleanup since some of the pages are only understandable to readers who are familiar with the game, but not for the more general audience.

Edited by DarkPaladinX on Oct 8th 2020 at 10:18:16 AM

DarkPaladinX Since: Sep, 2009 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#2: Oct 9th 2020 at 5:38:06 AM

A follow-up on the issues with the Tier Induced Scrappy and Game-Breaker pages in several video game trope pages. I've come up with possible solutions and actions to several of their issues in the said pages:

  • Keep the pages the way they are.
  • Keep the pages, but rewrite several examples so that the general audience will understand why a particular character, faction, or unit is overpowered or underwhelming.
  • Delete the respective Tier Induced Scrappy and Game-Breaker pages and lock them.

I'm open to more ideas and suggestions with the cleanup, so feel free to discuss your opinions on this matter.

DarkPaladinX Since: Sep, 2009 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#3: Nov 7th 2020 at 2:10:31 PM

EDIT:

Guidelines for Tier Induced Scrappy and Game-Breaker cleanup:

  • Assume that the reader does not know the video game meta well: While it is nice to give full explanation on the metagame, we can't assume everyone knows the video game meta. It is best to keep examples simple for the reader to understand and don't go too detailed on the examples.
  • Avoid technical jargon and terminology that may confuse readers: Avoid using too many gameplay terminology that the reader may have a hard time understanding. If the reader may not understand the terminology, explain the terminology in the example so that the reader can understand.
  • Link to the appropriate wiki pages if possible: It is best to redirect the reader to any appropriate wiki or Gamepress links if the reader is interested in the game itself. That way, the reader will have a better understanding of the video game's metagame in full detail.

Edited by DarkPaladinX on Nov 20th 2020 at 3:49:58 AM

Serac she/her Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
she/her
#4: Nov 10th 2020 at 9:41:49 AM

Yeah, I'm starting to think there could be a problem here. When a page has as many examples as Xenoblade Chronicles 2 does, you really have to wonder how much of it is "this one character is really OP" and how much is "this game is really easy if you know what you're doing".

Also, from that page, Poppi α is not an example. Sure, she can become almost immortal, but her damage output is awful. Having good damage is essential for tanking due to the way the game's aggro system works, and immortality doesn't mean anything if you can't keep aggro off of your allies. So, if you're actually using her, you'll be stuck on the sidelines slowly poking the enemy to death while your actual attackers kill the monster and pull aggro, which means your survivability is wasted.

Edited by Serac on Nov 10th 2020 at 11:42:25 AM

Coolnut Since: Jan, 2001
#5: Nov 15th 2020 at 7:52:56 AM

Looking at Fire Emblem Heroes, it seems that nearly every unit is listed there, added simply for "being good", "being bad", and even "being average". Having played the game a lot, I think 90% of the examples can easily be cut.

Edit: I'm going to cut all the "Unit Types" examples unless using said unit automatically gives a significant advantage or disadvantage. So I'm cutting "Cavalry Beasts", "Healers", "Dagger Units", "Cavalry Units", Dragon Units", "Beast Units", and "Infantry Units" as they are simply too generic. (Dancers and HoF Armors stay as they instantly give significant advantages and disadvantages, respectively.)

Edited by Coolnut on Nov 15th 2020 at 11:53:29 AM

DarkPaladinX Since: Sep, 2009 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#6: Nov 15th 2020 at 1:30:34 PM

Another problem with many of the Game Breaker and Tier Induced Scrappy, some characters have different purposes and uses that can be good in one aspect of the game, but terrible in other areas. Another thing to note that all video games (particularly gacha games or PvP games) suffer "power creep" where one character or faction will outshine the older characters. A good example is the Tier Induced Scrappy.Shadowverse page where Carabosse, Wicked Fairy used to be very common in aggro Blood decks. However, over the time when new expansions were added, there are more answers to this card and in the Unlimited format, the aggro Blood decks favored more "burst damage" with Storm followers using the "buff" mechanic. Also, in the Rotation format (the format where players can only use cards from the current expansion and the last four expansions), there are times where the aggro Blood deck needs to play very differently.

Now that you've mentioned it, there are two solutions to deal with the Game Breaker and Tier Induced Scrappy pages:

  • Delete all the respective Tier Induced Scrappy and Game Breaker pages.
  • Keep them, but rewrite many of the examples so that an average reader in this wiki may understand and link to their respective Gamepress or wiki page if the reader is interested in the game (and make the examples less Wall of Text and Word Cruft). One thing the TierInducedScrappy.Shadowverse page did right is that we have linked the respective cards to the Shadowverse Portal (basically an official database of all the cards in Shadowverse) so that the average reader will understand the details of the card. Using the GameBreaker.Fate Grand Order example, if we decide to keep the pages, I could link any "game breaker" characters to the respective Gamepress page.

Edited by DarkPaladinX on Nov 16th 2020 at 11:32:05 AM

jayscribble Since: Jul, 2016
#7: Nov 19th 2020 at 4:18:04 PM

On the subject of Fire Emblem Heroes, even though I am the main contributor there, I feel like there needs to be engagement of who should be added or kept in the Tier Induced Scrappy, whereas in the Game-Breaker page the discussion part of that page is active on what we feel like one and add on and remove when we all agree on a suspect. The changing meta also shifted their power somewhat, so some of them were considered scrappies when their entries were added.

Some proposals of removing on the Tier Induced Scrappy page of Fire Emblem Heroes:

  • High Tier:
    • Red Melee: Arya (she's there for archiving reasons, but compared to others released later she no longer even worth using over), Regular Sigurd, Zelgius, World Of Thracia Reinhardt, Karla (same as Ayra), Legendary Marth (really good against dragons, but mediocre against everything else), Regular Hrid, Keaton, Regular Lethe, Brave Alm Regular Byleth, Zofia's Call Catria.
    • Red Ranged: Winter Tharja, Igrene (she's useful the player's hands, but I don't see her in the enemy's side as often).
    • Blue Melee: Fallen Hardin (same as Ayra above), Winter Ephraim, Regular Selkie, Regular Dimitri, Brave Eliwood, Perceval.
    • Blue Ranged: Legendary Lucina (her father does her gimmick better), Regular Ishtar, Summer Laegjarn.
    • Green Melee: Regular Edelgard, Hilda, New Year Lethe.
    • Green Ranged: Regular Gunnthra, Scattered Fangs Nino, Lewyn, Halloween Kagero, Yune, Brave Micaiah, Dancing Reinhardt, Summer Selena.
    • Colorless Melee: New Year Selkie.
    • Colorless Ranged: Halloween Jakob (Valentine's Faye does his gimmick better), Summer Harmonized Mia & Marth.
    • Skills/Weapons: Distant Counter with Vantage, Berkut Lance+/Barrier Lance+.
  • Low Tier:
    • Red Melee: Regular Lucina (her rarity is her main detriment compared over Masked Marth, but otherwise she has her uses), Regular Male Corrin (he's a great support unit with his partner), Laslow (his weapon refine makes him in some cases stronger than Altina)
    • Blue Melee: Shiro, Regular Female Corrin.
    • Blue Ranged: Odin (he has the potential to be a great buffing unit).
    • Green Melee: Arthur (his unique refine gives him potential to be a ball of stats).
    • Green Ranged: Regular Merric (access to both Excalibur and Dark Excalibur makes him versatile).
    • Skills/Weapons: Growing Light AOE (basically things like Aversa's Night and Sudden Panic makes tightly grouping up a bad thing, and Growing Light can sometimes punishes those formations)
  • Both:
    • Red units: Seth.
    • Blue units: Regular Fjorm, Death Knight.
    • Green units: Regular Julia.
    • Colorless units: Legendary Female Robin (she is considered one of the worst dragons now)
    • Skills/Weapons: Tactic skills, Push skills, B Guard skill, Noontime/Sol.

There could be other there I might have missed, but I'd argue with some of the dancers there remain because of their use beyond dancing. Just tell me what I should add to the cull list or argue over if someone should stay there.

Edited by jayscribble on Nov 20th 2020 at 12:36:19 AM

Coolnut Since: Jan, 2001
#8: Nov 19th 2020 at 5:55:25 PM

[up] Looking at your list, here are the changes I would also make, based on my observations from playing (everything else you posted I agree with):

High Tier:
Red Melee: Cut Young Marth (a very good sword but not quite, say, Phina, who can dance)
Green Melee: Keep NY Lethe (percent damage reduction on a cavalry unit is still rare and utterly ridiculous). Cut Winter Sothis (a powerful unit, no doubt, but all she has is high stats and Svalinn's Shield takes away distant countering)
Green Ranged: Cut Young Merric (strong and fast but not too annoying) as well as SSS Selena (strong and fast but also very fragile)
Colorless Ranged: Cut Kronya (very good... but not quite good enough. Still fragile.)
Skills: Cut "The combination of Triangle Adept and -Raven tomes" — a good tactic to have but not too annoying as it is also too specialized (wasting two slots if, say, facing someone with the same color weapon). Also cut Rein skills (good but not as annoying — too specialized to get such a massive debuff)

I'd add Null C-Disrupt to the "High Tier" skills mix as well, as it can destroy many "snipe and run" strats, especially if they have some sort of Vantage added to it.

Low Tier:
Red Melee: Keep Lucina (has a few uses, but 5-star exclusivity and Masked Marth in the Grail shop should keep her here.)
Blue Melee: Cut Mathilda (pretty much Jagen 2.0)
Skills/Weapons: Cut Breath of Fog (has its uses especially against other dragons) and Cordelia's Lance (still highly useful even if it's not Amiti)

I'd add Merlinus to "Low Tier Colorless Ranged" when I get a chance.

Both:
General: Cut "Units in the 3-4 star pool" (might as well complain about (or praise) "commons" or Com Mons) as well as "units with a low Speed stat" (as they almost always have points in a Dump Stat).
Red Units: Cut Alm and the Celicas (their weapon refines take away their weaknesses) as well as the "Blazing Durandal Wielders" (who are RIDICULOUS if they have Galeforce)
Blue Units: Cut Ophelia (why is she even "mediocre"? She's one of the best units to have, espcially in Aether Raids)
Green Units: Cut Brave Ike (again, refine boosts him, which is why he is in High Tier.)
Skills/Weapons: Hoo boy. Cut everything except Poison Dagger, Push skills (1-3 is crap, 4 is extremely powerful), and AR Defense skills.

These are just my views — feel free to agree or disagree as you see fit.

Edited by Coolnut on Nov 19th 2020 at 8:55:53 AM

jayscribble Since: Jul, 2016
#9: Nov 19th 2020 at 9:09:50 PM

[up]With your suggestions, this is what the final list will look like:

  • High Tier:
    • In General: Guaranteed follow-up attacks, deny your follow-up attacks, percentage damage reduction, instantly charge their special on turn 1.
    • Red Melee: Regular Mareeta (her fallen variant I would argue falls behind her regular variant), Regular Tibarn, Phina, Young Caeda, Fallen Ike.
    • Red Ranged: Hoshidan Summer Micaiah, Aversa, Picnic Flora, Dancing Ishtar, Kiria, Regular and Brave Lysithea, Dancing Duo Sigurd & Deirdre.
    • Blue Melee: Brave and Legendary Dimitri, Duo Ephraim & Lyon, Valentine Rudolf, Fallen Male Corrin, Brave Hector, Dancing Eldigan.
    • Blue Ranged: Regular Reinhardt, Legendary Azura, Legendary Chrom.
    • Green Melee: Surtr, Legendary and Brave Edelgard, Brave Ike, New Year Lethe, Hel.
    • Green Ranged: Thrasir, Legendary Celica.
    • Colorless Melee: Fallen Tiki, Fallen and Legendary Female Corrin, Pirate Tibarn.
    • Colorless Ranged: Brave Lyn, Brave Veronica, Legendary Alm, Brave Camilla, Legendary Leif, Eleonora, Valentine Faye, Brave Claude, Shinon.
    • Skills/Weapons: Bold Fighter, Dazzling Staff, Wings of Mercy, all of the -1 special buildup entry, skills that punishes being near allies, Null Follow-Up on Lightning Bruisers, Reduce damage based on a stat comparison, Null C-Distrupt (newly added per your suggestion).
    • Unit types: Dancers.
  • Low Tier:
    • Red Melee: Tobin, Regular Lucina, Regular Alfonse, Luke, Regular Young Tiki.
    • Red Ranged: Canas, Regular Lyon, Regular Henry, Regular and Summer Leo.
    • Blue Melee: Mathilda, Sully, Spring Xander.
    • Blue Ranged: Regular Olwen, Oliver.
    • Green Melee: Regular Anna, Regular Narcian, Haar, Gunter.
    • Green Ranged: Boey.
    • Colorless Ranged: Regular Lachesis, Regular Mist, Rebecca, Clarisse, Matthew, Regular Jakob, Summer Frederick, Merlinus (newly added per your suggestion).
    • Skills and Weapons: Defiant skills, Seal skills, Sacred Cowl/Aegis and Escutcheon/Pavise, elemental Boost skills, +Atk refine, Silver+ grade weapons, Cancel Affinity, Vengeance and Reprisal, Aether Raids Offense skills, Feint skills, Dull Close/Ranged, Ivaldi.
    • Unit Types: Armor units in Hall of Forms.
  • Both:
    • General: Units with sky high defenses, Cavalry Line defense in Aether Raids.
    • Red units: Regular Seliph, Regular Laegjarn.
    • Blue units: Fallen Berkut, Sistery Trio Palla.
    • Green units: Regular Cecilia.
    • Colorless units: Regular Takumi.
    • Skills/Weapons: Poison Dagger+, Push skills, Aether Raids Defense skills.

Just tell me if any of those feel like it's not right. I'll do a major edit when I get the time. Just need to know if I should transplant the entries for Opheila and Regular Eliwood to the High tier categories (while also editing them to fit) instead of just removing them. Finally, should I link the ones I can to their Gamepress entries?

Edited by jayscribble on Nov 20th 2020 at 4:14:18 AM

Coolnut Since: Jan, 2001
#10: Nov 20th 2020 at 2:28:41 PM

[up] Go on ahead and make the edits.

Any objections?

(Edit) And yes, move Ophelia and Regular Eliwood to High Tier. You can use Gamepress as a reference, but take with a grain of salt as there was (and still is) controversy on how good/bad a character really is.

Edited by Coolnut on Nov 20th 2020 at 5:53:23 AM

DarkPaladinX Since: Sep, 2009 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#11: Nov 20th 2020 at 3:17:40 PM

[up][up]When listing the examples, I also highly recommend you link to the respective Gamepress pages, that way, the reader can go to the link directly to understand how strong/weak the unit is. In the case with Fire Emblem Heroes, I would recommend linking to any respective pages from Gamepress

I'll be doing a cleanup on the Gamebreaker.Epic Seven page a bit. Even though I lost my editing privileges, there are some units that may need to be removed from the list. For example, Maid Chloe needs to be removed in the list because there are too many counters to her in PvP environment (particularly arena defense, World Arena, and Guild Wars). I'll be rewording several of the examples in that page to be less wordcrufting and less Wall of Text.

I'll be asking one of the mods if there should be a set of guidelines for Tier Induced Scrappy and Game Breaker pages for everyone in the wiki to follow.

Edited by DarkPaladinX on Nov 20th 2020 at 3:29:38 AM

jayscribble Since: Jul, 2016
#12: Nov 20th 2020 at 8:52:06 PM

[up][up]All of that is done. Anything that should be discussed about should go now in the discussion part of that page. I'll also have to take note and not just add characters on there because I have a bad time against them a few times in the Coliseum and Aether Raids without any discussion or feedback from others first.

crazyrabbits Crazyrabbits from Mississauga, ON, Canada Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Crazyrabbits
#13: Apr 25th 2021 at 10:52:05 AM

At some point, I'm going to completely chainsaw half the examples in the Fallout subpage — it's been pigeonholed as having weapons that are "powerful, but still lacking in key areas" instead of "broken according to the rules set out by the gameworld / broken from a bug standpoint". I had a draft of the revised page partially completed, but lost it a couple months back.

Edited by crazyrabbits on Apr 25th 2021 at 1:52:28 PM

ChillyBeanBAM KIRBY CAR from Ontario, Canada Since: Jan, 2020
KIRBY CAR
#14: Jun 20th 2021 at 8:43:20 AM

GameBreaker.Plants Vs Zombies abuses bolded and italicized text, and has poor grammar and spelling in some parts of the subpage.

he/him
ChillyBeanBAM KIRBY CAR from Ontario, Canada Since: Jan, 2020
KIRBY CAR
#15: Aug 3rd 2022 at 10:14:18 AM

On YMMV.Mario Kart 8:

  • Game-Breaker:
    • Subverted with the Super Horn. It can take out nearly any item in a short distance from the user, even the Spiny Shell. If you can get it, that is. And if you don't get hit by the Lightning item, which makes you drop whatever item you're holding, or a Boo steals it from you when you least expect it.
    • Zig-zagged with Smart Steering. On the one hand, it prevents you from drifting off the sides of the track, which can be helpful in 150cc and 200cc. On the other hand, it also causes you to do some weird U-turns, often prevents you from taking shortcuts, and disables Ultra Mini-Turbos.

YMMV can't be played with, but is there anything salvageable here?

he/him
Karxrida The Unknown from Eureka, the Forbidden Land Since: May, 2012 Relationship Status: I LOVE THIS DOCTOR!
The Unknown
#16: Aug 5th 2022 at 12:53:26 PM

Absolutely not. Cut them.

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody remembers it, who else will you have ice cream with?
ChillyBeanBAM KIRBY CAR from Ontario, Canada Since: Jan, 2020
DDRMASTERM do you wanna have a bad time? from Someplace, Utah, USA Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
do you wanna have a bad time?
#18: May 8th 2023 at 7:58:29 AM

Sorry if this is a mostly dead thread, but we could use help cutting down many of the overlong examples on the Yu-Gi-Oh! Card Game page and its subpage.

Super_Weegee Since: Feb, 2019
#19: May 28th 2023 at 11:46:09 PM

I keep finding myself raising an eyebrow on the Breath of the Wild/Tears of the Kingdom's Game Breaker subpage. A lot of the entries don't seem disgustingly OP, which is the requirement mentioned on the main page. Are there any salvageable ones?

badtothebaritone (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: Snooping as usual
#20: May 28th 2023 at 11:54:26 PM

GameBreaker.Plants Vs Zombies could use quite a bit of quality control, as a lot of the plants listed there are good, but nowhere near broken.

INever Since: Feb, 2014
#21: Jun 16th 2023 at 4:23:49 PM

EDIT: I didn't realize you were also the OP of that thread, I'm so sorry.

welp, guess discussion is moving to here now.

^^ Anyway, continuing my question from the ATT thread, I'm pretty much fine with the proposed shortened list suggested by Super_Weegee in this thread, though I'm curious if this is a Game-Breaker or not (this is from the game's subpage itself, it's not in the thread - meaning it's almost prepared for deletion but I'm not clear on why):

  • Meat skewers are simple, but effective. Five Prime Meats will create a Prime Meat Skewer, which heals for 15 hearts, and sells for 210 rupees. Five Gourmet Meats will create a Gourmet Meat Skewer, which will fully heal Link no matter how many hearts he has, and will sell for 490 rupees. The ingredients for both can be easily found throughout the game (wolves, deer, buffalo, caribou, woolly rhinos, and bears, will drop Prime or Gourmet and all go down with a single headshot), and Prime Meat can be farmed from a minigame in Hateno Village.

Selling easily-obtainable meat is almost selling as much as gemstones. Is this a Game-Breaker or no?

Regardless, I'm completely fine with the new list so far.

Edited by INever on Jun 17th 2023 at 9:32:21 AM

Hello83433 (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#22: Jun 16th 2023 at 4:37:35 PM

Now, I've never played the game but my opinion is no, its not. If the devs did not want players to use this method to get rich, then they would have either A) lowered the selling price and/or B) made the meat less readily available or harder to obtain.

Also, being rich isn't really something that affects Zelda games. I've played most of them, and having rupees was never really a concern past like the first hour of the game because of how easy it is to get them anyways.

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