Needs Help (New Crowner 11 April 2021): Moral Event Horizon

Both points are fair. What stuck out to me was that almost none of the examples seemed to treat these statements as being subjective; no debate over when the line was crossed or if it was, it all seemed very definitive, especially since a lot of the wicks aren't even in YMMV to begin with. But, it's true that there's a difference between something being written in this certain way and being truly objective. I just think it's surprising how not subjective the examples appear to be, or at least how the people writing them don't seem to think it's subjective.

Maybe you have a point that people want to add MEH's as a badge of honor. I was focused more on the actual presentation of the examples and not on the psychology behind adding them.

This trope is a sticky one.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

For the record, I only responded to that TLP to correct the information about that example; I honestly am unconcerned with whether or not Vilest Deed actually becomes a thing.

Edited by Willbyr on Feb 22nd 2021 at 11:09:31 AM

Well, that proves that the first response from all the mods for making Vilest Deed wouldn't be no.

Anyone else ready to call this crowner so we can move on? Or should I make another ATT advertisement?

Are we still going to have examples if it's an objective trope?

Yes.

It wouldn't be a Definition Only Page, and I'm pretty sure nobody suggested making it one.

You can't always get what you want.

Right. It'd probably have less examples and wicks thanks to the new criteria, but it'd still be a trope. Just not on YMMV.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I just have one (hopefully not problematic) question: with the new criteria, will this trope now have a clean-up thread a la Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard?

(Don't) take me home.

We aren't sure yet. I'm not sure we'd need to approve them outright at the thread, but an EP system might be handy.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Some people are showing disapproval with some of the criteria, so there's a chance some of it will be voted out with another crowner. Once that crowner is out of the way, we can discuss MEH's thread joining the ranks of the CM and MB threads.

A MEH voting system thread similar too Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard would probably be needed considering how complex the criteria it has now, even with the disagreements. Who knows, maybe I or one of us would end up handling that kind of thing, but that is a bridge to cross once it is reached.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on Feb 23rd 2021 at 10:49:34 AM

CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes

I note that the crowner has slipped below consensus range over the past few days (apparently).

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Yeah, that's pretty weird. Wonder why that happened. Anyway, I think March 1st would be a good day to call the crowner.

So we talked a lot about what'd come from the trope moving to main, especially in terms of the criteria and how the troper hivemind would react. But what about keeping it in YMMV with the new restrictions? How would that work? The criteria is so based on narrative fact and portrayal that it'd feel weird to keep it in YMMV (at least IMO), so how could this criteria work if the trope remains subjective?

Since the option might not be in consensus when it's called, we should hash things out now and understand exactly what we're getting into, with either possible result.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Weren't we going to have a do over crowner for some of the criteria? If some of the criteria gets voted out, it might be a blessing in disguise if MEH stays YMMV.It's not just yours—it's mine as well, at least as long as all the criteria voted on stays intact.

Well, the criteria we're debating over (Change in Portrayal and Exceptionally Heinous by Work Standards), neither of those seem to have anything to do with whether or not it'd be subjective or objective- they're just complications that seem to be muddling the meaning. I don't think removing them would make the trope any more or any less subjective.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I'd say there SHOULD be a heinous standard, but not on the levels of Complete Monster where a paedophile can get removed simply by not destroying the Multiverse like another villain to use an extreme example.

Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.

Right. Baseline Heinous standard is something MEH needs, but being exceptionally heinous is a whole 'nother ballpark.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

We might also have to take resources into account, though not as blatantly as CM. If a billionaire beats and starves his son (but has a good reason for it, don't ask me what) while a poor man beats, and rapes his daughter; then we go with the guy with less resources. On the CM thread characters can be near misses by not having the resources of a sympathetic character.

Compare Cesar and Ugolin from The Simpsons vs Mr. Burns for example. Most of Burns' actions are played for comedy or just not as bad as they could be with a few exceptions, and he's sympathetic after the fact. Then we come to the French Winemakers who make a 10 year old boy almost go blind by drinking anti freeze, starving him, and being abusive to him. They are never seen as sympathetic except by people who think they are Laser-Guided Karma for Bart. The show makes no attempt to gloss over their actions or say they're anything but horrible. They fail the heinous standard, because their abuse is to one person, yes, but I feel they do enough to stay especially as they were created before Burns Kick the Dog moments.

Edited by Klavice on Feb 26th 2021 at 1:46:46 AM

Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.

I think I figured out why the crowner dropped below consensus range. Originally, the crowner asked if MEH should remain a subjective page, but it now asks if MEH should be an objective trope. I noticed that the crowner had 38 upvotes at some point, but it now only has 36. The most likely explanation is that the original wording made some people think they were voting to keep Moral Event Horizon YMMV by upvoting, came back after what the crowner said was updated, and corrected their mistake by downvoting. I also think this is where some of the recent downvotes came from that weren't people changing their votes.

If what you said is correct, changing it like that isn't kosher, because then it means changing what people voted for.

Edit: The option itself hasn't been changed. Are you referring to the header, which doesn't appear to have a history button?

Edited by GastonRabbit on Feb 25th 2021 at 1:23:54 PM

You can't always get what you want.

The option itself wasn't changed, and this theory strikes me a little implausible - I don't think that a lot of people would read the header and ignore the actual option.

I think I'll write up a draft description for the trope somewhen tomorrow.

Edited by SeptimusHeap on Feb 25th 2021 at 8:58:00 PM

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Considering not all headers name specific things being voted on (as opposed to just putting that information in the options' descriptions), unlike this one, that makes sense. Several crowners I've made had headers that simply said what was decided with a previous vote and left the descriptions up to the options themselves.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Feb 26th 2021 at 2:05:10 PM

You can't always get what you want.

I am referring to the header that says "Moral Event Horizon has a much tighter definition now. Should it be an objective trope?". Originally, it asked if MEH should remain a subjective page, and when it was pointed out that the wording could cause confusion, it was edited to what is seen now for clarity.

I'm not sure why else people would change their votes, and people ignoring what's written in front of them and beneath them happens all the time; just look at how many people attempted ban evasion in Edit Banned, and how one person in that thread didn't know what ban evasion was despite What to Do If You Are Suspended explaining it.

Edited by Kevjro7 on Feb 26th 2021 at 12:18:45 PM

So, throwing up a quick draft description:

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman