TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Making up for lost LGBTQ+ tropes

Go To

The cutting of LGBTQ+ tropes like Bi The Way and Badass Gay for not being tropeworthy have resulted in a lot of concerns that we have fewer positive LGBTQ+ tropes, which makes it harder to find appropriate ways to note LGBTQ+ characters in media if they don't fit another LGBTQ+ trope without throwing it into the description.

There's been discussion about whether we could implement some super trope for cases where being LGBTQ+ is relevant to the story, but the scope of this is difficult to figure out. Can we implement new LGBTQ+ tropes that reflect the significance of LGBTQ+ characters and aren't People Sit on Chairs?

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 17th 2024 at 12:14:40 PM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#451: Nov 17th 2020 at 12:05:16 PM

Yeah, it was cool to hear your perspective. I'm straight and cis myself, so my whole angle has been purely from a "trope/not a trope" standpoint and I lack the strong connection other people here have to these things, so it's cool to hear from people who have that different perspective on these tropes. Good to get different voices on this subject.

For Queer Gaze specifically I was very skeptical because for the longest time nobody could actually explain how it was different and a lot of people were also saying that, no, it wasn't, so the lack of evidence made me assume it was a duplicate. I have no experience in this area and until recently none of the arguments for it made any sense to me, so that struggle to put it into words did make it seem like it wasn't the thing it apparently is.

Edited by WarJay77 on Nov 17th 2020 at 3:07:16 PM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
AlexThePrettyGood Could be worse from Feeding the cat Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Could be worse
#452: Nov 17th 2020 at 12:29:49 PM

I'll admit that I was a little bummed when I saw that Bi The Way was cut shortly before I came more active on the site again, and fir a moment even thought that if I had just been on time, I might have been able to present a powerful argument for keeping it. But as I read up further, I had to admit that yeah... it was pretty chairsy for a trope.

Usally, when I read up on a new trope, I like to check for the entries in media I already know and enjoy that moment of flashback "Ah yeah, that happened." Bi The Way on the other hand, was a trope I'd skim every few months or so to see whether some media sounded like something I'd enjoy watching that had the added bonus of seeing some representation. The proposed Gushing JFF should more than cover for that.

There's still the many tropes that deal with how bisexuals are portrayed in media, so at least it doesn't feel (to me) like TVT is erasing us.

Everything can be found on the Internet... except common sense.
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#453: Nov 17th 2020 at 1:07:48 PM

The problem is that almost every bisexual trope is about negative, fetishistic, or "straight/gay with an exception" depictions. Sadly that's just what we have enough material to cover, but the gushing thing would work wonders.

I haven't checked the sandbox, is it looking decent? Do we need mod approval or anything before moving it to Sugar Wiki?

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#454: Nov 17th 2020 at 1:09:34 PM

I just added something to the Sandbox; right now there's two entries.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
AlexThePrettyGood Could be worse from Feeding the cat Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Could be worse
#455: Nov 17th 2020 at 1:27:14 PM

[up][up]Yeah, that's unfortunately true. I even wanted to close my previous message with saying that I hope that most if not all of the bi-related tropes on TVT would become Dead Horse Tropes soon, but wasn't really sure how to formulate it.

As for the sandbox, I didn't know you were already looking for samples fir it. I might loom at some soon.

Everything can be found on the Internet... except common sense.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#456: Nov 17th 2020 at 1:35:45 PM

A lot of positive depictions of bisexual characters that involve their queerness are things that are Tropes Are Flexible extensions of existing positive/neutral tropes regarding exclusively gay characters.

One of the unfortunate things about bisexuality and that partial ability to conform to heterocentric norms is that it does make it a little harder for bisexuals to carve out their own distinct niche in terms of depictions in media that aren't already part of the general queer umbrella of tropes.

As a bi person I can understand why the former Bi The Way trope was useful back in the day, because the idea of troping Aversions does feel meaningful on a narrative level when most of the negative stereotypes involving bi people feel like the norm. But the issue, especially as bisexuality becomes more recognized as distinct from homosexuality, is that aversions do not share a meaningful commonality in the affirmative so much as merely an absence of certain negatives, and that's not really trope material.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#457: Nov 17th 2020 at 1:45:41 PM

I remain unconvinced that each variation of sexuality needs to be "carved out" for treatment in tropes, at least not absent an observable and significant pattern in media. That is, after all, the point of TV Tropes. I'd make a comparison to Race Tropes: we don't have a subtrope of Race Lift for Indian actors pretending to be British or every other possible permutation because they're all covered under the main trope and nothing is added by splitting them. That said, we do have specific tropes when it matters: Magical Negro and Magical Native American describe very different stereotypes and traits.

A trope must describe a distinction found in media to be useful here.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 17th 2020 at 4:46:13 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#458: Nov 17th 2020 at 2:05:53 PM

Nowhere did I imply that, and besides that's exactly what I mean: because of our nature there isn't a coherent and long-running body of media that can fully be said to be by bisexuals, for bisexuals, that codifies positive and distinct depictions of ourselves the way the gay community, African American community, and Anglo-Indian community for example have managed to do for their own.

A lot of the bisexual quest for representation has gotten folded into taking it from a mixture of historic gay media that treated bisexuals as people with a foot in the door of gay, or heterocentric media with occasional splashes of queerness. By the time we've started to emerge as a distinct group in the mainstream, we've already become a part of the broader queer umbrella. Which is in a way a good thing as we're not being forced into our own media ghetto against our will, but that also makes for why it's difficult to find positive Bisexuality tropes as opposed to things that both gay and straight audiences unite in repulsion of.

Edited by AlleyOop on Nov 17th 2020 at 5:47:55 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#459: Nov 17th 2020 at 2:07:37 PM

This is why, if 2.0 ever comes, I think making an "LGBT characters" index would do a lot of good. Characters will apparently be treated like mini works related to other works (to badly paraphrase Fighteer), so we can have indexes for things that tropes like Bi The Way used to cover.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#460: Nov 17th 2020 at 2:23:48 PM

I feel a little bit off about creating character tags in 2.0 for ethnicity, gender, sexuality, and so on as those aren't strictly related to tropes, but given that the system will be structured to allow it, it's useful to a lot of people, and it's harmless, it'll probably happen.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#461: Nov 17th 2020 at 2:26:18 PM

Gender, sexuality, ethnicity, etc are relevant for a lot of tropes and are generally helpful for seeing how certain character traits are depicted in media. So I think it's still on-mission as long as it's not categorized as a trope, just a sort of mini-index.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#462: Nov 17th 2020 at 2:41:58 PM

Yeah, it's actually pretty useful for media analysis to know these sort of things, even if they aren't actually tropes. I think it'd be a good idea if we get to that point.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
AlexThePrettyGood Could be worse from Feeding the cat Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Could be worse
#463: Nov 17th 2020 at 2:58:24 PM

So, added an entry to the sandbox. Even though it's meant for Sugar Wiki, I hope it's not too long-winded tongue

Everything can be found on the Internet... except common sense.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#464: Nov 17th 2020 at 3:00:12 PM

Are we bringing it to TLP or just launching it?

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
wingedcatgirl mys. minty from the silly dimension from lurking (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
mys. minty from the silly dimension
#466: Nov 18th 2020 at 7:35:45 AM

Yes, yes there is.

But it's a sandbox, so it's not a big deal.

Suddenly I'm... still rotating Fallen London in my mind even though I've stopped actively playing it.
FernandoLemon Since: Aug, 2015
raspberryred99 pobody's nerfect Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
pobody's nerfect
#468: Nov 20th 2020 at 2:26:57 PM

[up]I say no, since some people might be shy about attaching their name.

You can call me Red.
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#469: Nov 20th 2020 at 2:36:47 PM

I had it as a precaution but I don't think they need to be. You don't need to be limited to one character or anything. I think listing your name while discussing personal information might put tropers at a higher harassment risk.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#470: Nov 24th 2020 at 12:05:23 AM

Not really a trope idea, but what do you guys think about a UsefulNotes.LGBT Pride Flags page? It would go well with the Queer Colors trope, and explain in more depth why certain flags and color schemes are associated with the LGBT community today.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
#471: Nov 24th 2020 at 12:45:24 AM

I think it’s a good idea. Surprised we don’t have it.

Macron's notes
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#472: Dec 4th 2020 at 3:21:39 PM

A few LGBT-related drafts are currently active in the TLP. One of them I think could be a decent Missing Supertrope for the closet-related tropes like Transparent Closet, Coming-Out Story, and Armoured Closet Gay. However it might be seen as unnecessary as it already has a single bomb. What do y'all think?

[down] Oh, hi! I forgot we had a conversation about that idea before. [lol]

Edited by mightymewtron on Dec 4th 2020 at 8:36:11 AM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
DracMonster Since: Jan, 2001
#473: Dec 4th 2020 at 4:14:37 PM

Hi, I started a Secretly Gay TLP and was pointed here. I'm up for suggestions and input on there including what the best name is.

EDIT: GAH! Ninja attack! Yeah, what mightymewtron said.

Edited by DracMonster on Dec 4th 2020 at 7:27:33 AM

Nazo Since: Jun, 2013
#474: Dec 8th 2020 at 5:56:08 AM

Just curious, when is the representation page gonna leave the sandbox?

mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#475: Dec 14th 2020 at 12:26:45 AM

I haven't checked it yet. To be honest, while I want it to exist, reading about other people's favorite representation feels intimate in a way I'm not used to on TV Tropes.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.

Total posts: 966
Top