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The 5T Incident - What went wrong, and how can we stop it?

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ccorb from A very hot place Since: May, 2020 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
#301: Sep 9th 2020 at 3:16:34 PM

[up] People did get banned for making comments, ranging all over the place.

Rock'n'roll never dies!
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#302: Sep 9th 2020 at 3:17:36 PM

Yeah, I never touched the draft itself but I made some comments and that warranted a ban- and I'm not contesting it. While my comments were...marginally better than some of the other ones, I still contributed to the mess by being part of the conversation.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
ImmiThrax 🏳️‍🌈🎃 from A Galaxy Far, Far Away Since: Apr, 2020 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
🏳️‍🌈🎃
#303: Sep 9th 2020 at 7:03:08 PM

  1. What made you participate in this incident?
    Misusing it as an outlet for stress and way to bond with other tropers. Thinking it was something interesting, entertaining, and notable instead of something horrifying that needed to stop.

  2. Where do you think your behaviour went out of line?
    Among other things, I may have kicked off the jokes about the site temporarily crashing when it hit 69 bombs. I know I'm the one who first edited/vandalized the draft by adding various comments.

  3. What would have been the best course of action instead of what you did?
    Log off and deal with my stress away from the site. Attempt to de-escalate the situation until mods arrive, such as re-focusing the discussion on ways to address the OP's concerns and pointing people elsewhere for their venting and joking.

  4. What have you learned from the fallout?
    Listen to my gut when I get a "this isn't right" feeling, and if that fails, listen to other people pointing that out. Just because something seemed to have been "permitted" once (the prior TLP incident) doesn't mean it was permissible.

Covered in Star Wars Cleanup, Deadpool, and Web Video sand. I'm not coarse and rough, but I get everywhere.
Kevjro7 Susjection! Since: Jan, 2020
Susjection!
#304: Sep 9th 2020 at 8:53:32 PM

What made you participate in this incident?
I saw the ATT query about a troper protesting Badass Gay being removed on Characters.The Last Of Us Joel And Ellie in Ellie's folder, found a link to the TLP draft in that query, and couldn't resist the urge to participate. I also thought the situation would just be a joke and nothing more.
Where do you think your behavior went out of line?
That would be my comment about betting how many bombs the draft was going to end up with. The comment, particularly the ...And 99¢ Suspiciously Specific Denial parts, only encouraged the mentality.
What would have been the best course of action instead of what you did?
Sending PMs to all the moderators consistently active on the wiki about the situation. Things wouldn't have gotten so bad and ended much quicker if they had been alerted immediately.
What have you learned from the fallout?
Don't treat bad TLP drafts as jokes, no matter how awful they are. Just because something bad was ignored in the past doesn't mean that the behavior is okay.

DivineFlame100 Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#305: Sep 10th 2020 at 5:41:29 AM

So anyway, I know I brought this up before but, I would like to reiterate it again just to get my intention across.

I would like to propose an Administrivia page for the 5T Incident that covers both the Mario Pissing debacle (the catalyst) and the Gay TLP debacle (the cause), in the same vain as The Great Crash, The Google Incident, and The Second Google Incident pages. While not as wiki-changing as all three of these incidents combined, I would at least like it to be a cautionary tale of our own decadence, to let others know what happens when you don't take TLP seriously and resort to dog-pilling mob mentality on poor drafts. It'll be included with An Aesop to always be constructive on drafts, no matter how bad they are.

Edited by DivineFlame100 on Sep 10th 2020 at 6:09:39 AM

lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#306: Sep 10th 2020 at 6:10:13 AM

I'm glad to see some of you submitted your answers. It seems that most of you are on the same page regarding what happened. Now, here is round 2:

  • What made you participate in this thread?
  • Do you feel you have anything new to contribute?
  • Would you be participating in this thread if the rest of the people involved in this incident were absent?

Same procedure applies. I will unlock the thread in a few hours.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#307: Sep 10th 2020 at 2:32:45 PM

Unlocked. This took longer than anticipated, sorry. Feel free to share your thoughts on this round of questions.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#308: Sep 10th 2020 at 2:37:28 PM

  1. Well, I was hoping for a thread like this to exist back when I first posted in Edit Banned. I knew the psychology behind this event would be interesting and important to discuss, and being able to speak openly with other people involved feels more comfortable than doing it alone in Edit Banned.
  2. Not sure. If I get a new epiphany or more people post their own new thoughts, sure, but most likely I've said everything I really have to say on the subject. I think Tuesday was really our "get it out of our system" day and now there's less that needs to be discussed.
  3. Depends. If this thread was just me and you, with you asking questions, yes. If it was just me screaming into the void, then no :P (More seriously though, the community aspect did keep me at this thread longer than I would've been, but I would've posted on it regardless at least a little bit.)

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Vilui Since: May, 2009
#309: Sep 10th 2020 at 2:39:22 PM

I kind of felt the need to be part of the discussion, since otherwise I wasn't contributing to making things better again.

I think I do have a different perspective to bring, because I'm one of the people who only left a single comment — it seems to be mainly the people who were most active who are continuing the discussion, though I could be wrong.

And I was one of the first people to answer, so yes.

Miss_Desperado https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YD2i1FzUYA from somewhere getting rained on by Puget Sound Since: Sep, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#310: Sep 10th 2020 at 2:41:44 PM

  • What made you participate in this incident? I was made aware of the incident when a link in TLP Crash Rescue led me to the Ask The Tropers Query, which in turn led me to the draft. I was thinking "This Is Gonna Suck, just how badly does Mareon need advice?"
  • Where do you think your behaviour went out of line? It didn't, or I would have been suspended too. The closest I might have gotten to the line would be adding one more bomb to the already high number. While I did have legitimate reasons to add that bomb, it was redundant and could be seen as encouraging the commenters calling for enough bombs to break the record.
  • What would have been the best course of action instead of what you did? Instead of going Screw This, I'm Outta Here! when I saw the clowning around, I could have tried to stop it myself or gotten a moderator's attention.
  • What have you learned from the fallout? I have learned that I should not gloat about how my comment on that draft did not get me suspended, especially when y'all are already beating yourselves up over getting suspended, as that would just rub salt into the wound. I have learned that I just plain don't understand what's so fun about clowning around on Mario Pissing and Gay.
  • What made you participate in this thread? I was wondering why so many otherwise reasonable TLP participants lost their heads. I was wondering what kind of neurochemistry was making the mob mentality fun for other tropers and not me. Troping Under the Influence of sleep deprivation didn't fully explain it because I was sleep-deprived at the time too — the East Coast users were staying up past their bedtime, I'm a West Coast user sleep-deprived from previous nights of insomnia and disturbed circadian rhythms.
  • Do you feel you have anything new to contribute? I want to break up the repetitive "I got suspended and I'm sorry" with the perspective of someone who isn't suspended.
  • Would you be participating in this thread if the rest of the people involved in this incident were absent? Maybe. It wouldn't be very enlightening scratching my head over "what went wrong?" in the equivalent of an empty or near-empty room, so I could have either not participated at all or jumped past "what went wrong" and right into "how can we stop it?"


I am starting to have a niggling suspicion of the answer to why I wasn't affected by the mob mentality. I am clinically depressed, maybe that's a Disability Immunity making me chemically unable to get an emotional high from mob mentality.

If not for this anchor I'd be dancing between the stars. At least I can try to write better vampire stories than Twilight.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#311: Sep 10th 2020 at 2:45:06 PM

[up] Most if not all of us did it because we thought it was fun and we got swept up in the whirlwind of chaos and community, so you might be right about why you weren't affected by the mob mentality.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
mightymewtron Word Up from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Word Up
#312: Sep 10th 2020 at 2:45:45 PM

[up][up] I'm clinically depressed, but being part of a group usually gives me a good serotonin high, hence why I comment so much on forums and stuff when I can. It's not an excuse for why I joined in the draft, but once I got validation for my behavior I didn't have the good judgment to do the right thing and back down.

  • What made you participate in this thread?
I wanted to bond with the others so we could talk about why we did what we did and figure out as a collective how to deal with the future. I genuinely felt a nice sense of community with the others here, which was probably also the same feeling that drove me to mess up the draft to begin with.

  • Do you feel you have anything new to contribute?
Depends on if any new developments must occur based on this incident that we should talk about. I think we've covered pretty much everything we need to talk about unless, god forbid, history repeats itself and someone starts trolling again. If this means do I have anything new to contribute to the Launch Pad...yeah, I think I'm able to be more respectful and less snarky towards poor drafts, and make comments with improvement in mind rather than putting people down. I did try to do that in the Gay draft, commenting advice regarding LGBT presence on the wiki...but peer pressure and my own ego brought me down. I have draft ideas I want to pitch myself, and I'll have to work with good form and criticism there as well.

  • Would you be participating in this thread if the rest of the people involved in this incident were absent?
I don't quite understand this question. Would we participate in any thread if the other people involved in the issue were absent? Like I said, I liked working out our reasoning and address our guilt as a collective so we didn't stew alone in our own pity, which wouldn't have gotten anything done. I'm not so ashamed that I wouldn't have talked to the mods directly, but it felt nicer to talk with others so we could take collective responsibility- while also addressing specific issues we may have caused individually- rather than blame it on one or two people. I apologized on Edit Banned and I don't think I would need to talk directly to the mods on here rather than add to my entry in there. This was a continuous discussion that addressed multiple points of view so we understood what the issue was.

Edited by mightymewtron on Sep 10th 2020 at 6:31:46 AM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
CustardAndPie Oh Captain!~ from in a tank 'bout to steal yo girl Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Remembering what Mama said
Oh Captain!~
#313: Sep 10th 2020 at 2:48:20 PM

1. I think talking the situation out with the other people involved and reading their thoughts have helped me come to terms with what happened and why.

2. As far as I'm concerned I've said all that I ever needed to say about this matter unless something new pops up. I've reflected, I've apologized, and I've talked it out with other people involved in the situation.

3. Even if the others didn't participate in this thread, I still would've. I legitimately felt bad for what I'd done, and if I didn't post about my regrets I know the guilt would've eaten me for a long time.

Edited by CustardAndPie on Sep 10th 2020 at 4:50:09 AM

Hey how you doing well I'm doing just fine I lied I'm dying inside
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#314: Sep 10th 2020 at 2:55:36 PM

I can definitely attest to the feeling of community being so strong as to make me lose my own judgement. I think more than anything I just wanted to be involved and to participate and to interact with tropers I almost never talk to. There was a stress-relief component too and being exhausted as shit didn't help either, but the community thing was a major factor, for sure- as with this thread. It just feels good to be in a big group like this, all united and getting along and bonding, it's something that feels really nice- especially after all this quarantine time and really only interacting with my family, coworkers, and boyfriend.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
wingedcatgirl mys. minty from the silly dimension from lurking (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
mys. minty from the silly dimension
#315: Sep 10th 2020 at 3:06:37 PM

  • What made you participate in this thread?
The question came up in Let's Improve the TLP on how to prevent something like this from happening again. I'm kind of a master of spending way too much time thinking about how to prevent things that have already happened, so I figured I could contribute there.

  • Do you feel you have anything new to contribute?
I can't think of anything in particular left to say at this point... It feels like the conversation is nearing its end. But who knows, maybe something surprising will come up.

  • Would you be participating in this thread if the rest of the people involved in this incident were absent?
I think if this conversation was just me and the mods, we'd still have had a conversation, but it wouldn't have lasted as long. Maybe. Counterfactuals are hard to predict.

Suddenly I'm... still rotating Fallen London in my mind even though I've stopped actively playing it.
PrincessPandaTrope #BoomSilverTheVampire4Lyfe from Up and Down and All Around Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: In love with love
#BoomSilverTheVampire4Lyfe
#316: Sep 10th 2020 at 3:14:33 PM

1. Because I wanted to talk with others and see how they felt about the situation.

2. Well, from now on, we'll deal with poor drafts as they were any other drafts, not turn them into a Wild Teen Party. That makes TL Ps look unproductive, newbies very discouraged, and trolls fed.

3. Yes, because I want to give my two cents.

Content Warning: My posts may involve my actions dealing with R-rated or Not Safe for Work content. Same for my edit history.
DivineFlame100 Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#317: Sep 10th 2020 at 3:23:45 PM

"What made you participate in this thread?"

  • Simple. I'm looking to atone for my bad behavior for this whole mess. While I could've done that easily in Edit Banned, I find that with this thread, I can connect with members who're on even circumstances as I am and share our thoughts about how we improve from here on out, whereas in Edit Banned, I can't really do that because of rules forbidding chat between banned users.

"Do you feel you have anything new to contribute?"
  • I do. This incident has woken me up to a systematic issues in TLP I feel needs addressing, mainly in regards to the elitist/cynical culture mindset that's discouraging new users from participating, and at worst, being very hostile towards them. We should all learn to give constructive feedback to new users and strive to help them improve. In addition, I would like the 5T Incident to be remembered as a cautionary tale of our decadence, so that it won't be forgotten and people can learn from it.

"Would you be participating in this thread if the rest of the people involved in this incident were absent?"
  • Yes, because even if I were flying solo here, I still need to atone for my behavior in some way. Because I'm not going to simply let this slide while my very existence on this wiki is on the line. I agreed to take responsibility for this disaster, and I will see to it through the end.

Edited by DivineFlame100 on Sep 10th 2020 at 3:24:06 AM

Van-San Since: Aug, 2020
#318: Sep 10th 2020 at 3:27:55 PM

1. I wanted to give my reasoning for my behavior and hear what the others had to say for themselves

2. Next time there's a sub-par draft, I will just tell them to add more to it or help them by giving them something to add to the draft.

3. Yes, because I want to make up for what I did by talking about why I did it, even if the others are not here.

Troping across the universe...
ccorb from A very hot place Since: May, 2020 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
#319: Sep 10th 2020 at 3:30:10 PM

I was the one who created the thread after someone suggested a dedicated thread for this incident on "Let's Improve the TLP". I figured this as a place where people could forgive themselves and get involved in stopping something like this from happening.

I really don't want to participate in something like a Wild Teen Party anywhere on the internet, and this includes TV Tropes. I hope to contribute something legitimate on the TLP.

Even if the others were absent... yes, I started the thread, and I started it as a place where not only I, but others, could admit our lack of self-control and atone ourselves.

Edited by ccorb on Sep 10th 2020 at 6:33:00 AM

Rock'n'roll never dies!
Crossover-Enthusiast from an abaondoned mall (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#320: Sep 10th 2020 at 3:38:52 PM

  1. Saw it linked in "Let's Improve the TLP" and went "Well it's not like I have anything better to do." Most of my time in this thread has been lurking until I had something to say, however.
  2. New to this thread or in general? On the former, not really, though honestly if Mareon comes back from their time out and gets unsuspended, I'd like to PM them over here so we can all apologize to them and maybe have a genuine discussion regarding LGBT tropes afterwards.
  3. If it was just me on own? No. The big draw to this thread was being able to talk person-to-person with each other on where we fucked up and where to go from there. You don't get threads this open and honest every day, even if it had to come from, again, us being idiots.

Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢
ImmiThrax 🏳️‍🌈🎃 from A Galaxy Far, Far Away Since: Apr, 2020 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
🏳️‍🌈🎃
#321: Sep 10th 2020 at 4:00:36 PM

I really appreciate the questions, Lu. It helps us reflect, and keeps us on topic and discussing this in a hopefully productive way. I hope it's useful for you and the other mods.

  1. What made you participate in this thread?
    I believe in restorative justice and want to actively participate in making things better after messing things up. This thread is an opportunity to receive feedback from anyone who was hurt, compare notes on the similarities and differences in our involvement, and hopefully help prevent future incidents.

  2. Do you feel you have anything new to contribute?
    To the site, yes; to the thread, that depends on keeping it moderated and structured on addressing specifics questions or topics. For instance, we talked about why we participated and possible interventions when something's already in progress, but I'm unsure if we've offered specific actionable ideas on prevention or repairing the relationships.

  3. Would you be participating in this thread if the rest of the people involved in this incident were absent?
    Probably not; since this is public, I'd feel singled out for public condemnation if none of the other people were here, as if I was supposed to act as a representative of everyone else involved. I'm only prepared to speak on my own behalf, whether publicly like this or private with mods.

Covered in Star Wars Cleanup, Deadpool, and Web Video sand. I'm not coarse and rough, but I get everywhere.
Kevjro7 Susjection! Since: Jan, 2020
Susjection!
#322: Sep 10th 2020 at 7:22:58 PM

What made you participate in this thread?
I figured this incident would be discussed on wiki talk, so I looked for a thread. Seeing everyone else talk made me want to join the discussion.
Do you feel you have anything new to contribute?
In this thread, I'm gonna say no. If this question is about the wiki as a whole, then yes.
Would you be participating in this thread if the rest of the people involved in this incident were absent?
Since my reason for participating in thread in the first place was to continue the community bonding, the honest answer is no. Per the terms, I would have just waited until Friday to appeal the ban if no one else was here.

VidExGuy I’m a space pirate, give me your moon rocks. Since: Apr, 2020 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
I’m a space pirate, give me your moon rocks.
#323: Sep 10th 2020 at 7:53:58 PM

Okay this one I feel comfortable with sharing.

1. "What made you participate in this thread?"

Simply put when I went to Tropes after nodding off when I went back to check on the "Gay" party, I noticed it wasn't there. Immediately sensing something was up, I logged in and went to TLP only to be greeted with a ban. Now extremely confused, I went across the forums to try and find what had happened. Eventually I think I found on my own the "Let's Improve the TLP" thread and that's when I learned what was going on. I was one of the people who witnessed the creation of the new thread (or threads I should say) and from that point I shouldn't have to explain why I migrated here.

2. "Do you feel you have anything new to contribute?"

Let's keep this short: No.

3. "Would you be participating in this thread if the rest of the people involved in this incident were absent?"

I'd probably leave a single apology post and promise to do better and then leave so that I don't look like I'm talking to myself like a maniac. If mods don't count among the people involved, I think I would still participate but be extremely weirded out and bail halfway through because I wouldn't be able to shake the feeling that I was being put in a pillory and publicly humiliated. I know it's not the ideal answer but I honestly think that's how it would go with me.

Forum signature.
alnair20aug93 🍊orange fursona🧡 from 🐾Furrypines 🇵🇭 (Long Runner) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
🍊orange fursona🧡
#324: Sep 11th 2020 at 2:28:34 AM

My answers:

  • I came here via the "Let's Improve the TLP" thread. I would say that this thread is part gathering/part status report/part intervention by vibe.

  • Since the other tropers had already suggested the most optimized suggestions, I have nothing to add. All I can contribute is that we should encourage one another, not just anyone on this thread, but to the draft sponsors.

  • That depends. Being suspended from the TLP made me a realize that I've been wasting my time checking for updates, when I should be doing more productive like painting. All I could say is that I would check this and contribute from time to time.

ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔|I DO COMMISSIONS|ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#325: Sep 11th 2020 at 7:05:20 AM

Interesting that we have more replies. Now, here is the final part of this exercise:

Go back to the questions below:

  • What made you participate in this incident?

  • What made you participate in this thread?

Look at your answers. What common points/words can you locate between the answers to these questions? What conclusion can you draw from this piece of data?

Edited by lu127 on Sep 11th 2020 at 3:06:34 PM

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer

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