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themayorofsimpleton Semi-retired
Semi-retired
Sep 26th 2020 at 8:30:17 AM

[up][up][up][up] Yeah you can cut the Batman example. GoldenEye (1997) alone is proof that not all licensed tie-ins were awful. Also, I personally approve of adding the disclaimer, if it can keep out misuse, though I don't know if others would. Thoughts?

[up][up][up] Yes, those do have to go as well if the genres are still alive. Though I could see people being confused if the description says "these often aren't permanent." Perhaps that section could be deleted? We do have Genre Relaunch for genres that came back.

[up][up] Yeah that example can go as well. The entry itself says a Genre Relaunch occurred thanks to Joker, so that is the trope that entry should be on if it is not already there.

[up] I will keep that in mind, thanks. I don't think that the CA movies damaged the reputation of the site/the Walkers, however, as their downfall occurred as a result of the whole Change the Channel fiasco. (An argument might be able to be made about the review of The Wall, however, as I distinctly recall that most of the Critic's defenders that were still around left after that disaster.)

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Sep 26th 2020 at 11:31:00 AM

The Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining sandbox, for reference for all who need it
Sep 26th 2020 at 2:39:04 PM

Got it, they're gone. Whle we're at it, there should be a disclaimer at the top of each page warning people that examples don't really count of they experienced a Genre Relaunch later in time, as that's not really what a "Genre Killer" is

themayorofsimpleton Semi-retired
Semi-retired
Sep 26th 2020 at 3:08:59 PM

[up] I'd be open to that, but I think there should be more discussion first. Anyone else have other thoughts?

The Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining sandbox, for reference for all who need it
nrjxll Relationship Status: Not war
Sep 27th 2020 at 1:20:34 AM

That doesn't really seem like a good idea. For a Genre Relaunch to exist, there must be a reason the genre needed relaunching in the first place - and while it's true there isn't always a single specific cause, trying to draw a distinction between permanent and temporary genre 'killers' seems excessive.

Sep 27th 2020 at 7:46:10 PM

I would think that genres that experience a Genre Relaunch would have a Genre-Killer.

themayorofsimpleton Semi-retired
Semi-retired
Sep 27th 2020 at 9:22:23 PM

Alright so based on discussion here the disclaimer should not be added. I guess that means we should get back to cleaning up misuse.

The Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining sandbox, for reference for all who need it
SailorTardis Reject Fairy Princess from The Selenitic Age Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Reject Fairy Princess
Sep 29th 2020 at 8:27:02 PM

[up][up][up][up][up][up] Yeah his review of The Wall counts more as a Creator Killer. Most of the people I saw who defended him through the Change the Channel controversy gave up on him after that. Nowadays, outside of his dwindling core fanbase, a good part of the internet considers him a laughingstock.

Illuminate!
PlasmaPower Opa Opa! Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
Opa Opa!
Sep 30th 2020 at 5:25:52 AM

These Trivia.Cant Stop The Music entried are quite the doozy...

  • Creator Killer:
    • The film contributed to this happening to two studios. While in both cases there were other factors, Can't Stop the Music cannot have helped matters any:
      • Some have suggested that Can't Stop the Music ended up killing music label EMI's film studio, but Honky Tonk Freeway, released just a year later, was in reality the bigger perpetrator. Much like Can't Stop the Music, it got scathing reviews from critics (in its case for its stereotyping of American culture), but added to that was the revelation that the film was financed by executive producer Roy Tucker through tax dodging schemes with assistance from a banking cartel (which prompted EMI to sell the film rights to investors to clean their hands of the matter), which led to audiences staying away from the movie in theaters and was taken out of the screens after only a week. As a result, Honky Tonk Freeway flopped instantly, and EMI Films spent its final five years producing or financing a string of moderately to poorly successful films, before EMI sold the studio to businessman Alan Bond (who would end up becoming the target of press controversy for scandals that same decade), who in turn sold the assets to The Cannon Group.
      • Meanwhile, Lord Lew Grade, head of Britain's ITC Entertainment (producers of cult shows, including many Gerry Anderson series and The Muppet Show), had film aspirations, which led him to team up with EMI for the American joint venture Associated Film Distribution. At first it seemed like good things were in store, with The Muppet Movie performing very well. Then Can't Stop the Music happened. Another blow against him occurred with one of the ITC/AFD films he sold, The Legend of the Lone Ranger, caused controversy when ITC tried to force the old Lone Ranger actor, Clayton Moore, to stop making public appearances as the character like he'd been doing for years. This caused extremely negative publicity for the film and the studio, particularly in the United States, where Moore was considered to be a national treasure. The general public overwhelmingly took Moore's side and stayed away from the movie; as a result, it significantly underperformed at the box office. Another bomb occurred with Grade's adaptation of Raise the Titanic!, which was so messy, Grade himself commented "It would've been cheaper to lower the Atlantic." Grade realized that this wasn't working and cut a deal with Universal to release the remaining ITC/AFD backlog. ITC never really recovered from these, and thanks to the loss of their sister ATV (which had been semi-replaced in the ITV network by Central), they went into freefall, with Grade kicked out in 1982 by corporate raider Robert Holmes a Court; the next few years saw asset-stripping and ITC withering on the vine, their nadir probably being the distribution house for the infamous 1990 revival of Tic-Tac-Dough. They were briefly owned by PolyGram Filmed Entertainment in the mid 90s, and Grade himself briefly came back, but it wasn't enough. Grade died in 1998, and ITC was essentially shut down, with the library passed between multiple owners.
    • Publicity for the theatrical release stated that Nancy Walker was the first woman to direct a multi-million dollar musical, and had been signed to a three-picture contract, which was rescinded when the film tanked.
    • Producer Allan Carr never recovered from it, though he still managed to mastermind the infamous opening number to the 1989 Oscars with Snow White and Rob Lowe; this event was ripped into pieces and bits by critics and brought Snow White supremo Disney down on the Academy and Carr like a load of bricks, destroying his career for good.
    • Combined with the nosediving popularity of disco and their attempt two years later to reinvent themselves as a new wave group, this movie also spelt the end of the Village People's popularity.

  • Genre-Killer: This film and Xanadu effectively killed the non-Disney musical, which was already crippled during the 1970s and by then was only kept afloat by the now-extinct disco craze. While the genre is not completely dead, as Moulin Rouge! (2001) and Chicago (2002) sparked renewed interest in musicals, and the genre seems to be making a comeback with the combined critical and commercial successes of Into the Woods (2014) and La La Land (2016), musicals are not considered particularly standard.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Sep 30th 2020 at 9:31:53 AM

Runs both TheAllegedCar/RealLife Cleanup and the Power Rangers Cleanup. Uses She/They
themayorofsimpleton Semi-retired
Semi-retired
Sep 30th 2020 at 5:33:19 PM

[up] The Nancy Walker one might count, but the rest can all go. Much of it consists of either "this killed it, but there were other factors" and "this killed it, until it came back." Chainsaw all but the Nancy Walker bit, and even then let's see if there are any second opinions about keeping it.

The Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining sandbox, for reference for all who need it
themayorofsimpleton Semi-retired
Semi-retired
Sep 30th 2020 at 5:53:13 PM

Found this on Film:

  • It's said that Airplane! killed the Disaster Movie craze of The '70s by making audiences unable to take them seriously anymore. While the genre was revived by The '90s with movies like Armageddon, Deep Impact, Dante's Peak and Volcano, which benefited from the development of modern CGI, the airliner-in-peril/stewardess-lands-the-plane trope won't be taken seriously again. Eventually, 9/11, the Indian Ocean tsunami, and Hurricane Katrina killed the genre a second time, with very few pure disaster movies being made since then. The 2010s-era revival of the genre downplayed the "disaster" angle while focusing on the "survival" part, while reconstructed examples were thrashed by critics and audiences.

Firstly, the entry itself says that the genre was revived in The '90s, meaning Airplane! did not kill the genre. The second part describes the genre dying not because of a work, but because of real-life events, which might fit Distanced from Current Events better. And then it says that the genre came back again. Any second thoughts before I cut?

The Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining sandbox, for reference for all who need it
J79
Sep 30th 2020 at 9:08:00 PM

[up] It would better to just rewrite that one and move it to Popularity Polynomial.

Edited by J79 on Sep 30th 2020 at 9:08:27 AM

themayorofsimpleton Semi-retired
Semi-retired
Oct 1st 2020 at 4:46:24 PM

[up] Alright, I tried my hand at a Popularity Polynomial rewrite:

How did I do? Any things I should rewrite before I post?

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Oct 1st 2020 at 7:46:32 AM

The Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining sandbox, for reference for all who need it
Oct 1st 2020 at 5:37:52 PM

Have we actually decided that works can't be Genre Killers if the genre was later revived? I thought we decided the opposite.

themayorofsimpleton Semi-retired
Semi-retired
Oct 1st 2020 at 7:10:56 PM

[up] Mixed. Some have said yes, some have said no. I have no idea.

I think it's slightly redundant to have Genre Relaunch examples on both itself and Genre-Killer, though.

We need more discussion on what qualifies for the Killer tropes IMO.

The Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining sandbox, for reference for all who need it
themayorofsimpleton Semi-retired
Semi-retired
Oct 3rd 2020 at 6:50:05 AM

Alright I will post the Popularity Polynomial rewrite and remove the Genre-Killer example as that was the only response I was given to that example.

EDIT: Done.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Oct 3rd 2020 at 9:53:03 AM

The Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining sandbox, for reference for all who need it
themayorofsimpleton Semi-retired
Semi-retired
Oct 3rd 2020 at 6:53:55 AM

Also I found this bizarre example on Film:

  • Film journalist Stephen Metcalf argues that the wretched production excesses of Days of Thunder in 1990, and their attendant impact on the film's profits, killed the kind of blatantly commercial "triumph" movies that producers Don Simpson and Jerry Bruckheimer had made so much money for Paramount with during the 1980s, films that were sort of a backlash against the auteur-era movies that had prevailed before Heaven's Gate. Afterwards, studios would let directors assert themselves creatively again (enabling a wave of "auteur revisionism" led by Quentin Tarantino, Steven Soderbergh, and Robert Rodriguez), and it's no coincidence that Days director Tony Scott's critical reputation improved over the course of the '90s.

What is the entry even trying to say? What "genre" was killed? This example is just weirdly worded and bizarre.

The Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining sandbox, for reference for all who need it
themayorofsimpleton Semi-retired
Semi-retired
Oct 4th 2020 at 11:20:47 AM

Bumping to get some help with the above example.

The Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining sandbox, for reference for all who need it
Oct 4th 2020 at 11:27:15 AM

I agree that it's very unclear what "genre" was supposedly killed. Looks like an easy cut to me.

themayorofsimpleton Semi-retired
Semi-retired
Oct 4th 2020 at 12:32:51 PM

[up] Thanks for the help. Example has been removed

The Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining sandbox, for reference for all who need it
themayorofsimpleton Semi-retired
Semi-retired
Oct 7th 2020 at 9:33:32 PM

This just got added to Genre-Killer:

  • It's largely forgotten now, but back between the wars, there was a very popular minor sub-genre of Purple Prose-laden rural gothic novels. Then Stella Gibbons wrote Cold Comfort Farm, which is good enough to survive despite it having killed its targets.

What? How did the genre get killed? Is it even a genre to begin with? Before I cut this example I would like some second thoughts.

The Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining sandbox, for reference for all who need it
themayorofsimpleton Semi-retired
Semi-retired
Oct 9th 2020 at 6:33:49 PM

[up] Bumping for help with the above example

The Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining sandbox, for reference for all who need it
themayorofsimpleton Semi-retired
Semi-retired
Oct 11th 2020 at 7:07:17 AM

From ProStars:

  • Genre-Killer: This series and Yo Yogi! are considered the shows that killed the Saturday Morning Cartoon (alongside the Children's Television Act of 1990, which merely set the footprint), as their piss-poor reception (and the success of live-action series Saved by the Bell which also aired on Saturday mornings) led to NBC finally killing their children's programming block and set the stage for other networks to wind down their blocks (or, increasingly by the mid-90s, outsource them to other companies).

Did they? I thought the Saturday Morning Cartoon died because of competition from cable networks like Nickelodeon and Cartoon Network. I certainly don't think "Pro Stars" did it, as I've barely heard of the show.

The Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining sandbox, for reference for all who need it
ccorb from A very hot place Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
Oct 11th 2020 at 7:11:49 AM

[up] Seems like some stealth complaining. You can cut it.

Rock'n'roll never dies!
Oct 11th 2020 at 7:35:15 AM

The Other Wiki has a bullet-pointed list of eight contributing factors to the decline of Saturday morning cartoons, and weirdly, none of them are pair of relatively obscure series.

Cut, burn, load ashes into rocket, fire rocket into the sun.

Glowsquid gets mad about videogames from Alien Town
gets mad about videogames
Oct 11th 2020 at 7:38:30 AM

Did they? I thought the Saturday Morning Cartoon died because of competition from cable networks like Nickelodeon and Cartoon Network. I certainly don't think "Pro Stars" did it, as I've barely heard of the show.

IIRC a big factor was the 1990 Children's Television Care (which banned a lot of advertising sources that made those blocks profitable) and networks using it as a pretext to dump cartoons for more profitable programming. Either way it definitely wasn't caused by a specific show lol


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