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M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#351: Jul 19th 2023 at 5:15:05 PM

[up][up]There's also Elder Scrolls' Bosmer. While it's not obvious in the games, the lore reveals that the Bosmer are downright eldritch on their home turf.

Disgusted, but not surprised
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#352: Jul 19th 2023 at 6:09:35 PM

Granted the tendecy of elves good and bad is sophistication so hillibily elves is kinda wild take of sorts, even the most racist elves often come more as snobish utterly rich prick(think lucius malfoy with pointy ears and you get it).

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#353: Jul 19th 2023 at 6:31:30 PM

Elves either play up the Crystal Spires and Togas snootiness (High Elves) or play up the Noble Savage archtype (Wood Elves) with a shitload of Cultural Posturing.

There's a reason why in many a fantasy setting, if it's not Humans Are the Real Monsters, it's Elves fucking things up.

Of course, sometimes you have both, as seen with the Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40K settings.

Edited by M84 on Jul 19th 2023 at 9:33:27 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
God_of_Awesome Since: Jan, 2001
#354: Jul 19th 2023 at 6:33:49 PM

Snooty elf trope is reserved for the People Of The Tall Trees, or high elves as they normally are known.

Then there are the People Of The Misty Woods, or wood elves, who are shy, mildly creepy but very friendly once you get them to stop running away. They live in swamps and jungles and anywhere suitably arboreal and foggy.

Oh, and there's a Drowish Mafia operating on the surface.

God_of_Awesome Since: Jan, 2001
#355: Aug 4th 2023 at 9:51:05 PM

My D&Derivative (Goblins) (Elves)

My take on The Spindly Ones, followed by The People Of The Forest

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#356: Aug 9th 2023 at 6:45:58 AM

So how would Bhaal see other evil deities like Asmodeus and Shar?

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
TrashJack Confirmed Doomer from beyond the Despair Event Horizon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Confirmed Doomer
#357: Aug 9th 2023 at 7:41:54 AM

[up] Competition, most likely. The rampant power-jockeying of the Abyss, the politicking of the Nine Hells, and The Blood War raging throughout all of the Lower Planes is proof that D&D's various flavors of evil are very prone to infighting.

"Cynic, n. — A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be." - The Devil's Dictionary
RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#358: Aug 9th 2023 at 11:37:39 AM

Works for me.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
MyssaRei Since: Feb, 2010
#359: Aug 9th 2023 at 12:03:55 PM

If we ignore the Bhaalspawn saga, Bhaal's motivations in the Realms were... Weird. Prior to the Bhaalspawn saga and the Time of Troubles, his major intervention in the plot was screwing with the Ffolk in the Moonshaes, which I need to remind everyone is VERY far from the mainland Sword Coast, and not exactly the cosmopolitan setting you'd see an avatar of the Lord of Murder to manifest in.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#360: Aug 9th 2023 at 8:33:24 PM

Besides enjoying the general bloodshed and mayhem, Bhaal's goal in the Isles was also to turn them into his own personal domain and to corrupt the Moonwells into portals through which he could send his own forces and even his own avatar the Ravager.

Edited by M84 on Aug 9th 2023 at 11:35:43 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
MyssaRei Since: Feb, 2010
#361: Aug 31st 2023 at 8:49:13 AM

I'm amused at ALL THAT WORK for Zagig to ascend to demigodhood. Find a superpowered arcane artifact, use it fuel a magical device that can summon anything up to demigods on demand, THEN trap 9 demigods of opposite alignments, then syphon a fragment of each's divinity into himself.

After decades of this, the ritual is done, he achieves apotheosis, and his mortal remains get secretly buried so no one would try to do a Vecna on him.

And yet all his other friends just get sponsored to Demigodhood. Like Murlynd gets vouched for by Heironeous literally the moment he dies.

I understand that his patron was Boccob, who would likely be "interesting, let me see you work for it" in attitude, but come on.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#362: Aug 31st 2023 at 8:29:38 PM

And the Dead Three simply asked for godhood and got it. Not just demigodhood, full blown godhood.

They really lucked out by meeting the one god who was tired of his job and wanted to let someone else handle the bullshit.

Then they did such a shitty job of it that they got themselves killed off and demoted.

BG III spoilers:

Then they make the same mistake again in BG III by setting up a scheme that threatened to erase the very mortal souls that the gods need to survive. Which means all of the other gods are mad as hell at them. Small wonder Jergal chews them out and calls them a bunch of fucking idiots who have failed at being gods.

Edited by M84 on Aug 31st 2023 at 11:36:31 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
MyssaRei Since: Feb, 2010
#363: Sep 1st 2023 at 8:17:32 AM

[up]

The main issue with the Dead Three is that they've continued to act like ambitious mortals, except now that they had eternity to play the power game. Remember the Time of Troubles? When you get down to it, it was just a heist to gain MORE POWA.

You'd think with the Second Sundering making it harder to pull shenanigans like in BGIII, but nope, there's always a divine work-around innit?

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#364: Sep 1st 2023 at 9:55:57 AM

Granted, the BG III scheme only had a chance because it relied on the Crown of Karsus, a powerful artifact created by the Karsus. As in the Netherese Wizard who nearly broke magic itself.

And yeah, the Dead Three's biggest flaw is that they never really stopped thinking like the ambitious mortals they once were. Jergal even called them out on it. He says that while they have the titles of gods, their actions were those of fools.

Edited by M84 on Sep 2nd 2023 at 12:58:05 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#365: Sep 1st 2023 at 9:58:44 AM

What about..The Gibbering Twelve?

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#366: Sep 1st 2023 at 10:04:27 AM

The only time they're mentioned is in the backstory of an npc in the BG I expansion Tales of the Sword Coast.

By all accounts they were just a brotherhood of mages that are practically a dime a dozen in the Forgotten Realms. Heck, I bet the Host Tower of the Arcane had more pull than they ever did.

The Forgotten Realms is practically stuffed with pretentious and foolhardy mages with inflated egos. Karsus was the worst of the bunch and he did the most damage. But way too many mages afterwards don't seem to have really learned anything from Karsus' Folly.

I guess that's what happens when you dump Wisdom for Int.

Edited by M84 on Sep 2nd 2023 at 1:10:25 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Avenger09 Since: May, 2014
#367: Sep 5th 2023 at 10:12:05 AM

Which is funny since one of the most famous modern depictions of Elves portrays them as having far more to them then that, as this tumblr post illustrates well.

I wonder where that snooty stereotype originated from? Had to have been from between the early to the late 20th century.

Edited by Avenger09 on Sep 5th 2023 at 7:17:08 PM

MyssaRei Since: Feb, 2010
#368: Sep 5th 2023 at 2:47:19 PM

[up]

Wait what? Weren't we talking about the Dead Three, then Karsus and wizards and not Elves?

I think one of the things that we have to understand is that Wizards that many are of the "ivory tower snooty academic" vein and are HIGHLY insular. Which meant that many of them were NOT willing to share research materials even with people they trusted and were friends with.

To give you an example — you'd think that, due to the HUGE number of Liches running around in the Realms, that there must have been an annotated guide somewhere to the process that someone who has decent resources can simply copy (*cough* Its in Candlekeep *cough*). But no, one of the old plot points (in 2nd edition) for the big honcho in the Host Tower of the Arcane in Luskan was he was dying of old age and needed to find the formula pronto.

Take note, in Greyhawk, you could turn into a Lich as low a level as 11th. This guy was level 18, as powerful as Otiluke. And he still couldn't figure out how to turn into a lich. I recall it took an OUTSIDE SOURCE in 3rd Ed (an Enrinyes or succubus? I forgot) to finally give him the formula he needed.

Edited by MyssaRei on Sep 5th 2023 at 2:50:17 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#369: Sep 5th 2023 at 7:47:00 PM

TBF with the lich transformation specifically that might be an issue of regulation. Given what it entails, the information on how to actually do it is either heavily regulated or outright banned.

And anyone powerful and evil enough to figure it out on their own and perform it is probably even less social than the average wizard. So they're not going to be keen on helping anyone else become a lich. It just means more competition.

Disgusted, but not surprised
ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#370: Sep 6th 2023 at 6:20:03 AM

So I've got this campaign idea I've been turning over in my head for a while, and I've been looking for feedback, or maybe just input and feelings other people would have:

Basically, a princess's father was betrayed and killed by his nobility, and her younger brother turned into a puppet ruler. This lead to a civil war between the majority of the nobility, and the few allies the princess has left; including a lich who is being entirely and 100% honest when they say they have no interest in the throne themselves and have no plans to betray the princess by turning the nation into a kingdom of the dead at the hour of her inevitable victory.

I'm not entirely sure what the party's role in this would be, either outside agents trying to weaken both sides, or working for one side or the other. Guess that's why I'm looking for feedback. I just remembered it when I saw people talking about lichdom.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#371: Sep 6th 2023 at 6:41:44 AM

Considering how awful liches are due to what you have to do to become a lich in most cases, you really need to have one hell of a justification for a lich ally.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Earnest (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#372: Sep 6th 2023 at 6:52:24 AM

[up][up]Campaign wise, you could actually leave it open to the party who they choose to back. Since players usually trend good, give the nobles a legitimate reason to dethrone the old king, like he was badly mismanaging the realm, or going to press his claim on a neighboring (and much stronger) kingdom that'd have devastated the realm. Now the party has to decide whether to trust the nobles (who are still puppeting the prince) or the princess with her dubious alliance with the lich.

Maybe, if they're diplomatic enough, they can reconcile the factions. Difficult since the nobles killed (or imprisoned?) the king, but having a looming threat from a larger aggressive neighboring kingdom could push even stranger alliances.

Having the Lich's motivation thoroughly mapped out is a must, they aren't likely to help from sentimentality even if they aren't actively evil. I'd suggest that the princess' backer isn't a lich, but a Baelnorn. Then they don't have to have the evil baggage, and a mission to protect some site that is at risk from the power struggle. The fact barely anyone knows the difference between a standard lich and a Baelnorn, thinking they're default evil too, is a huge PR nightmare for the princess but will solve narrative and game problems, so the players have less qualm about helping.

Alternately, Lich's are strange. This one might have a ritual that slowly and harmlessly draws power / soul fragments from the countryside. So they can keep on lich-ing without needing to go out and eat souls. Mass death from a war though would actually upset that ritual and ruin their centuries of careful research. If you still want the lich to be lower case evil, it might be that an ancestor of the princess extracted a promise backed by a geas that they protect the royal line and land, in exchange for a quiet place to work. So they'll be ruthless and evil, but mean no harm to the princess or her brother.

ultimatepheer Since: Mar, 2011
#373: Sep 6th 2023 at 7:03:02 AM

My initial plan for the lich was the idea that being court wizard (and potentially, state executioner) in perpetuity would be a great deal for a lich, getting basically infinite resources to do whatever magical experiments (and soul eating) they wanted to do in a way that was entirely legal and hard to stop without declaring war against a lot of innocent peasants. The kings and queens of the kingdom would come and go, but the deal the first one made with the lich will stay, giving them all the benefits of ruling a nation with remarkably few of the duties.

Although a baelnorn could be cool too; I actually hadn't looked into them, before now, mostly just vaguely heard them mentioned in lists, I think.

Earnest (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#374: Sep 6th 2023 at 7:22:29 AM

That's an interesting point. Replace death by hanging for criminals with "death by soul eating" and you have a remarkably appealing way to get a lich on your side. Depending on which setting, the souls of the evil go to hell and become "coinage" for demons or become them eventually, so the lich / kingdom can argue it's no worse than what they'd already get (or a mercy in a way). Probably the only downside is if an innocent gets convicted and set on lich row. sad

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#375: Sep 6th 2023 at 7:35:46 AM

I assume players are supposed to sympathize with the princess.

Having her strike up an unholy alliance with a powerful lich is not exactly a sympathetic act. Especially if part of her deal is feeding the lich souls.

Just stick with a baelnorn.

Disgusted, but not surprised

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