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The Batman (2022)

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NotGrantMorrison Since: Jul, 2014
#1376: Apr 29th 2022 at 8:15:20 AM

>What Riddler was able to do was provide concrete proof of how everything intersected each other, which is a prosecutions' dream.

Yeah how did he get that? Especially the bit about Falcone being the rat Is the idea it was just an assumption and the whole scheme was just to get Bruce to get Falcone into shooting range?

HasturHasturHastur from Wheah the fahkin baby wheel is, Jay Since: Nov, 2010
#1377: Apr 29th 2022 at 8:27:15 AM

As a forensic accountant, he was a). good at putting two and two together and finding trails, and b). probably had access to lots and lots of internal records where people were arrogant and/or stupid enough to openly or implicitly admit to shady deeds and deals. Assuming he did audits on the GCPD's books, they probably didn't even bother trying to hide it.

EmeraldSource Since: Jan, 2021
#1378: Apr 29th 2022 at 10:17:21 AM

Forensic Accounting is basically searching through storage rooms of paystubs and ledgers to track down discrepancies. You spend enough time seeing rental payments for properties already owned or thousands of charges curiously $5 more than the check written for them and the String Theory can lead to a pattern. These records by themselves are often semi-public, at least to internal groups and depending on if Riddler was state, county or city auditor how he got access is a non-issue.

Fun fact, on film sets clothespins are heavily used to set up lighting rigs and often damaged by the end. When accountants started complaining about the several thousand dollars needed for clothespins, gaffing budgeters started calling them T-47s to sound more official.

Comics are just words and pictures. You can do anything with words and pictures.
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#1379: May 1st 2022 at 11:36:11 AM

I saw the movie now. Yes I know, late to the party tongue

Gotta say, it took a bit to get used to it at first, the setting was so down-to-earth it almost made the Nolan films seem fantastical. Batman just kinda.....walked around in the open most of the time, sometimes even during broad daylight. Pattinson also seemed quite skinny. But hey, it worked, I liked his version!

The one big issue I had with the film was the last act. Everything happening after the Riddler was put away was just too much. The film didn't feel stretched up until that point, but when the whole big plan unfolded, it seemed like the film just didn't want to end.

Nevertheless, I thoroughly enjoyed it and I'm curious to see where this goes.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
InkDagger Since: Jul, 2014
#1380: May 1st 2022 at 10:32:54 PM

I think I figured out why the back act kinda feels... blah.

The film is fundementally a noir mystery narrative.

The third act... is a super-hero third act.

They aren't entirely compatible.

Once Batman has caught Riddler, what... actually happens if Batman fails? Like, the city is already flooding. The mayor is already shot. Thousands are probably dead by now.

What do I actually care about happening right now?

Compare to Dark Knight, we care about what happens to Rachel or Harvey because they're characters we've gotten to know and because Bruce cares about them. Or, when Joker has his climax, we don't actually care about the boats full of prisoners and civies, but we do care about the morals of Batman which Joker is putting to the test in his little game.

In this movies' climax, what am I actually rooting for? What's actually at stake? What happens if Batman fails? And the answers are kinda... blah.

And it's a Mystery Narrative; Big Whoop! We already solved the mystery. Case closed. We're good. There's no actual mystery being solved right now. Its why "The Summation" is such a classic end game for mysteries; solving it is the end goal and anything beyond that is pretty bland.

Edited by InkDagger on May 1st 2022 at 10:34:02 AM

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#1381: May 1st 2022 at 10:51:08 PM

I always saw the third act as more of a fight for the soul of Gotham, like if the mayor dies and there's a massacre in the stadium, then Riddler wins and sends the symbolic message that Gotham is doomed. There's also the bit on how this part is important for Batman to realize punching people isn't as productive as actually inspiring and helping people.

Like the movie ends with a more hopeful Batman learning the value of actually helping more people, and Mayor Real vowing to restore faith in the institutions of Gotham.

Had Riddler actually succeeded, I doubt the movie would have ended on the note that it did.

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
EmeraldSource Since: Jan, 2021
#1382: May 1st 2022 at 11:33:36 PM

It's the same narrative structure problem The Dark Knight had, capturing the villain feels like a climax and setting up the actual third act feels like a two-part episode instead of one story. The way to fix that problem would be having the villain captured earlier in the second act, early enough the heroes feel clever and proactive for getting ahead of the villain for a minute instead of stuck being reactionary for the entire second act. Skyfall did the "villain captured midway" trope very well for that reason.

With that in mind, changing the structure around so that Riddler is caught shortly after interrogating Penguin and one of his copycats is the one to snipe Falcone would have helped that pacing.

Edited by EmeraldSource on May 1st 2022 at 11:35:34 AM

Comics are just words and pictures. You can do anything with words and pictures.
InkDagger Since: Jul, 2014
#1383: May 2nd 2022 at 12:17:28 AM

[up][up]

Like, I get that's what they're going for. The characters aren't just... doing nothing for the third act. They're reacting rather than acting, but there's still stuff happening.

It just doesn't work as the climax to a mystery story because there's no mystery being solved. It is the climax of any other Batman or Super-Hero movie tacked onto what is... not a super-hero story. Least not in function. That's why a lot of people seem to have found the movie to drag and be a bit too long.

I also just don't think Mayor Real is someone we're supposed to care about as an audience. She isn't a character. She's not really someone we know. I as an audience can impart some read onto her, but there's nothing the movie is doing. So there's no "Hooray!" moment if she lives.

And like, she survives and that's great but... everyone else died in this horrific disaster. She's the mayor and all that. But had she died instantly to that sniper bullet earlier I don't feel like it actually would have changed much about the climax. Batman would have just carried someone else out of the wreckage.

RedHunter543 Crimson Paladin Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Crimson Paladin
#1384: May 2nd 2022 at 1:28:19 AM

I felt Real worked for what she's supposed to symbolize: a non corrupt government for Gotham. If she dies, then that's it, Batman would have failed to secure a better future for Gotham, which is part of the theme of Batman realizing there are better long term ways to help Gotham.

Plus she's not the only one saved in the climax, there's an entire crowd there too, hence the scene with the flare.

Edited by RedHunter543 on May 2nd 2022 at 4:29:18 AM

"The Black Rage makes us strong, because we must resist its temptations every day of our lives or be forever damned!"
Ohmknight _(o)_ from the End Since: Jul, 2020 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
_(o)_
#1385: May 2nd 2022 at 7:48:57 PM

[up]I agree. In the movie,She is the symbol of progress. If she dies, symbolically, the hope for Gotham dies.

The Final Name
ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#1386: May 2nd 2022 at 8:00:55 PM

Thematically Batman saving her is important for Gotham, while Batman saving Mitchell's son is important for Bruce.

NotGrantMorrison Since: Jul, 2014
#1387: May 2nd 2022 at 11:05:49 PM

And yet we don't see here doing anything to root out the core issues besides a literal "Just trust us, bro."

The city suffered a terror attack as a direct response to a decades-long conspiracy at the highest annals of power, and her response is"We need to rebuild faith in our institutions" Like how? It's an empty platitude. How many cops is she posing with that are or were on the take? The film would have had her character work better if we saw her campaigning against corruption, but then it makes LESS sense for Riddler's goon to want to assassinate her. (Also I argue the flooding of Gotham is majorly out of character for the motives the film set up earlier. It's a cheat to get a big third-act battle when all you needed was Batman fighting the Riddler wannabees.)

slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#1388: May 2nd 2022 at 11:14:07 PM

I'm pretty sure she was, its just Riddler doesn't care.

He and his followers have the mindset that they are all rotten even the ones who aren't.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#1389: May 2nd 2022 at 11:27:13 PM

The Riddler is a man who has legit grievances against Gotham but a childish solution to the problem.

In truth, he just wants violence and revenge. Think about his murder of the Mayor. He knows that the Mayor has a child, a son that cares about his day. A child who is no different from him when he was an orphan. Yet he murders the Mayor anyways and then use his corpse as a morbid riddle for Batman. The Mayor's son was traumatized when he finds his dad lying there. Was it worth to orphan another child just to expose corruption?

The fact that most of Riddler's victims are corrupt is just icing on the cake. And it is reality since the worst demagogues that come into power are the ones that screech that society is corrupt and they alone can fix it.

What was the danger of Villain Has a Point? Ah yes, if the Riddler is right about corruption in Gotham, a good chunk of his audience would then believe the rest of his points and his solution are also right. Even if it's mass murder.

Edited by Shadao on May 2nd 2022 at 11:27:41 AM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#1390: May 3rd 2022 at 3:53:22 AM

I mean, he probably doesn't care about the Mayor's son, on the same basis he didn't care about Bruce Wayne. Children coming from a rich and powerful background don't deserve sympathy in his mind.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Windona Beetle Brained from At the intersection of eternity (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Non-Canon
Beetle Brained
#1391: May 3rd 2022 at 3:58:17 AM

The Riddler seemed like a send up of far right violence and groups. When unmasked he's a really plain looking guy who has a lot of internet followers. The grievances that created him are real, but he stewed in revenge fantasies until he became a major threat to the city.

Candidate Bella Reál seemed like a send up to figures like Stacy Abrams and other politicians. She legit talks to Bruce about using his Wayne money to help more, and tries to calm down a panic. I got the impression 'restore faith in our institutions' was less about a PR trick and making the institutions less corrupt.

My AO3
windleopard from Nigeria Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#1392: May 3rd 2022 at 4:06:20 AM

This is the "Killmonger was right" discourse all over again. People valorize the angry, murderous villain who kind of has a point but doesn't have a viable plan while ignoring or outright vilifying the black woman who had the right idea.

DavidMerrick from Ottawa, ON Since: Jun, 2018
#1393: May 3rd 2022 at 4:48:19 AM

It's even dumber than "Killmonger was right" because at least Killmonger had charm and charisma and actually does care about the global oppressed. Dano's Riddler is an accelerationist creep with no plan beyond burning it all down and who seemingly cares for no one except his similarly murder-horny followers.

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#1394: May 3rd 2022 at 5:34:01 AM

I feel like the Riddler became unambiguously wrong when he decided flooding Gotham was a good idea, if not earlier.

The legend has returned.
DavidMerrick from Ottawa, ON Since: Jun, 2018
#1395: May 3rd 2022 at 7:16:49 AM

Or even earlier, when Riddler forced Colson to drive into a building and nearly through a crowd of people—some of who were among the upper crust that he hated, but many who were just random schmoes from all walks of life.

Like, argue that the movie is too long or oddly paced or what have you, but I just don't buy that the climax is tacked on. In fact, on a rewatch a lot of it is clearly telegraphed, albeit not didactically so: we see numerous signs and displays letting us know that Bella Reál holding her election night rally at Gotham Square Garden; it's made clear as early as the mayor's memorial scene that Riddler has ardent supporters online and right there out on the streets; he refers to Gotham as a cesspool which, sure, but he never gives any hint that he wants to save it or for the people to rise up in the way Bane (superficially) does in TDKR; think about how many times the seawall is shown or mentioned.

I adore that climax. It's probably my favourite final act in any comic book adaptation, taking Batman's greatest fear—losing people he cares about to a stranger with a gun—writ large and in a way that's disturbingly resonant to modern audiences. And I think that if the movie's middle acts were a little tighter nobody would be complaining about how rushed it seems. It's absolutely essential to the movie's themes and it'd be a weaker movie without it.

Edited by DavidMerrick on May 3rd 2022 at 10:21:38 AM

theLibrarian Since: Jul, 2009
#1396: May 3rd 2022 at 7:17:53 AM

Killmonger didn't give a single fuck about the oppressed. He was using Wakanda as a way to lash out against the world and was planning on using the black people of the world as patsies.

DavidMerrick from Ottawa, ON Since: Jun, 2018
#1397: May 3rd 2022 at 7:20:43 AM

You're probably right! I haven't seen Black Panther since 2018 in theatres so my exact memories are fuzzy.

Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#1398: May 3rd 2022 at 7:21:28 AM

Killmonger didn't give a single fuck about the oppressed. He was using Wakanda as a way to lash out against the world and was planning on using the black people of the world as patsies.

He's only written like that to make his grievances seem inconsequential. It's a common trope.

Hawkeye86 Spirit of Battle from Classified (Searching for Spock) Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
Spirit of Battle
#1399: May 3rd 2022 at 7:34:40 AM

[up]Same with Riddler in this movie. High level corruption in city government is bad, so he has a valid point. But then he tries to kill everyone with a massive flood, that way we don't sympathize with him too much.

You and I remember Budapest very differently
Diana1969 Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#1400: May 3rd 2022 at 7:36:42 AM

Same with Riddler in this movie. High level corruption in city government is bad, so he has a valid point. But then he tries to kill everyone with a massive flood, that way we don't sympathize with him too much.

I mean, the difference to me is that Riddler really does feel like some kind of right-wing lunatic type. Entitled white guy indulging in some murderous power fantasy.


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