Values Dissonance/Resonance Cleanup

Repost from the previous page. I'm still waiting for permission to delete the following:

• "You Keep Me Hangin' On" (originally by The Supremes, covered by Vanilla Fudge and Kim Wilde) is a song about a woman trying to escape an abusive relationship, who for the most part is sympathetic. Then, it gets to the line "Why don't you be a man about it?" which would make the woman sound sexist and not too much better than her ex.

While "be a man" is generally seen as sexist when it's used in the context of being tough, brave, etc, in this context she's referring to someone being mature enough to leave a relationship and not manipulate and abuse her — "be a man" feels more like "be an adult" here. It's also not nearly on the same level as being an abuser. So yeah I'd say cut it.

I deleted the paragraph I reported here, along with the one that no one replied to on the previous page, from Rhapsody: A Musical Adventure:

• Values Dissonance: After the Frog Kingdom, if you pick up Michael and Caroline's dolls they say they were in the wrong for putting their needs above the kingdom, even though they were clearly in love, happy to be together, and the King went back on his word just to kill Michael.

This is obviously misuse of the trope, since it's talking about characters changing their values.

Since there's a 20-year waiting period, this Metroid Other M stuff should be removed since the game is only from 2010, right?

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=ValuesDissonance.VideoGames#edit38249963

Or is it fine since the Franchise as a whole is older? And if so, is it fine having a liveblog link in a note?

It's a region-based example (Japan versus America) so the waiting period doesn't apply.

- Thanks! ... any issues with a Liveblog link in the example? ... and I'm wondering just how much is just Lost in Translation.

From YMMV.The Simpsons S 13 E 6 She Of Little Faith:

• Values Dissonance: Near the end of the episode, Marge and Lovejoy attempt to bring Lisa back to Christianity with Christmas. When she calls them out on it and seeks advice from Richard Gere, he tells Lisa that, despite being a Buddhist, she can pretty much celebrate any holiday she wants (including Christmas). Today, celebrating a religious holiday for a religion you are not part of (especially if you've never been part of it) would be seen as cultural appropriation.

Is it really "cultural appropriation" for a non-Christian to celebrate Christmas? Nowadays, many people have separated Christmas from its religious roots, and plenty of non-religious people partake in its celebrations. Especially since Lisa was raised Christian and celebrated it every year of her life so far.

Yeah, I feel nowadays it's more controversial to not celebrate Christmas even secularly than to do it even if you're not Christian. Cultural appropriation doesn't seem to be as hot button a topic in this context.

Wasn't that example cut before?

Yeah, that is a very bad example, cut.

Especially because there's a difference between 'celebrating' and believing in. It's not cultural appropriation to partake in a holiday you don't necessary believe in the holiness of. If I give someone a gift for Hanukkah without practicing Judiasm myself, the recipient isn't gonna fly off the handle.

Alright, I removed it.

Yeah, I'm an atheist but that doesn't mean I'd ever give up Christmas. The modern values of the holiday (togetherness, family, gifting, charity, etc) are all things that transcend what religion someone is a part of; people don't really care that much.

That Other M paragraph feels to me like it should be cut. Aside from "arguably" and linking to a blog for no clear reason, it states that Samus is seen as a free agent by American fans and a soldier in a hierarchy by the Japanese, but that's not the core issue here. Most Anglophone critics I hear seem fine with Samus having Adam as a superior, but it's the way he treats her, (worse than dispassionately, he seems belittling and needlessly controlling) and how she never seems to accept all this, that they don't like.

I would also cut the paragraph about Samus's voice acting. The issue I hear is that the English voicing comes across as unnatural, not that it's too stoic. Not values, just a failure of translation.

There might be something to how Americans see more value in being a bounty hunter. The rest just feels like rambling.

Most people in the west celebrate Christmas because, like all holidays, it’s just a convenient excuse to get time off work/school, spend time with loved ones, and get free stuff. Japan doesn’t even have many Christians and they don’t even have many Christians. The “celebrating a holiday for a religion you aren’t a part of is cultural appropriation” point doesn’t apply because Christmas has become more of a cultural holiday than a religious holiday.

Edited by TheLivingDrawing on Sep 27th 2023 at 11:18:05 AM

SoYouWantTo.Avoid Writing A Mary Sue has a link to Values Dissonance when noting that if the story is a fanfic, then what's impossible in one universe might be normal in another. I think that's misuse.

Yeah, VD is about morals / values, not the physical laws of the universe.

I have been working on the YMMV page of Carrusel and I added a few extra tropes:

• Values Dissonance:
  • Maria Joaquina’s racism towards Cirilo wouldn’t fly today, which is a reason why the remake heavily tuned down this aspect of Maria Joaquina’s character and made her dislike Cirilo more because he’s obsessed with her.
  • David sacrifices his pet turtle in order to make turtle soup for Fermin to recover from his illness. There is NO WAY this could have flown in the United States.
  • To a lesser extent, the Friend to All Living Things in this show (Mario) is male. In North America and Northern Europe, this type of character is usually female. And while most of the females have no issues in animals...all but one (Valeria) are murophobic.
  • The series has plenty of fatphobic jokes about Jaime and Laura that can come off as being offensive to modern viewers.
  • The Girls vs. Boys Plot between the kids is treated a lot more serious in the original to the point it bordered on Mars and Venus Gender Contrast, and even though this plot point IS kept in the remake, it’s treated more as being something silly that kids tend to do and is usually Played for Laughs. It’s also helped by the fact that pretty much all the girls have more defined personalities now and one of them(Alicia) is even a bit more of a tomboy.

Let me know if there’s something I need to fix.

Edited by ArtsytheCreator on Oct 7th 2023 at 4:24:20 AM

The lesser extent example is iffy. I dont see that being an actual thing. The rest are great.

As for your third example, I think the part about Mario could be cut, since a male Friend to All Living Things isn't that uncommon in Anglo-Saxon media. However, the bit about the female characters being scared of mice should be kept, since Eek, a Mouse!! is really depreciated in the last few decades.

The last example doesn't feel like Values Dissonance at all, since it's all about the remake being more progressive about gender than the original series.

This is on YMMV.Steins Gate:

• Values Dissonance: It's safe to say that Okabe's entire incident in Moeka's apartment, in which he beats her up to get her phone and use it to fix the worldline while she cries rape and gets ignored by the neighbor wouldn't have worked in almost any other country.

For context, Okabe is breaking in on someone he knows is planning awful things, but he can't prove it so the natural reaction by his target is to make herself look like a victim. As I recall, she cries out but no-one answers, and it's left ambiguous whether the neighbours are ignoring her, nobody is at home at that time, or the walls are soundproof. The entry seems to be saying that the Japanese are disposed to be bystanders to crime, but the show itself isn't saying that. I suggest cutting it.

I've seen works where "character X cries 'rape' and no one helps them" from plenty of countries besides Japan. It really depends on the execution and circumstances.

Cut.

On RoboCop:

• Values Dissonance: When Murphy tries to recall his memories, he heads to his old home, which is located well outside of Detroit's city limits. In later years, it's been found that a major factor to the general distrust of the police, and a big part of Police Brutality, is that a large number of officers don't actually live in the areas that they serve in, which would make Murphy's journey outside of Detroit somewhat problematic to modern audiences.

To give a bit of credit, this entry does at least touch on a nuanced systemic factor rather than just saying 'good/evil cops exist'.

On the other hand, Murphy not living directly in Detroit is such a minuscule detail that I'm not sure it justifies this entry. It's not like the film passes any value judgement on the topic, but I'd like to check if anyone here has a take.

This is an extremely minor detail I dont think anyone but the troper who wrote that cares at all.

I agree. Cut it.

Sounds more like Artistic License – Law?