Values Dissonance/Resonance Cleanup

Agree, not an example.

The Divine Comedy

General:

• There is another page called Divine Comedy that needs to be merged with this page. (There is also Divine Comedy that could be merged with The Divine Comedy, but that isn't relevant here).

Dissonance:

• Sodomites aren't necessarily gay. Sodomy is an umbrella term for any sex act that doesn't involve a penis going inside of a vagina (which also includes things like anal sex and oral sex). Therefore, it can be concluded that there are also straight people being punished for sodomy in hell. (There should also be a mention of the gay couples in purgatory.)
  • Some people have pointed out that pederasty (sexual activity between an adult man and a boy) was common in Florence during Dante's time. And these same people have argued that the Florentine sodomites are actually in hell for being pedophiles, NOT for being gay. So saying that these pedophiles are in hell for being gay and not for being pedophiles has some really bad implications.
  • This, along with the fact that only the sins of incontinence have terraces on purgatory, forces the reader to contrast sodomy from homosexuality (see above). There is a terrace for lust and it has both straight and gay couples, but there is no terrace for violence, let alone sodomy. Therefore, it can be concluded that sodomy isn't the same thing as homosexuality; rather, it is something worse.
• The hoarders are misers who selfishly saved money for themselves. This isn't the same thing as mentally ill people hoarding items. Selfishness isn't caused by a mental illness; it's caused by people being shitty.
• Genocide is a modern concept, which means it didn't exist in Dante's time. That needs to be mentioned here. (I would suggest rephrasing that it is odd for modern readers NOT to consider violence as the worst type of sin.)
• Satan's black face isn't necessarily compared to an Ethiopian. His black face is only compared to a generic African with no specific country or nationality mentioned.
• The inclusion of Muhammad and Ali in hell should definitely be added here, as that is something that can be considered offensive to many modern readers. (The mosques around the City of Dis may also be included for the same reason.)

Resonance:

• Talk about the fact that there are more Jews in heaven than in hell. The only Jews Dante put in hell are Judas, Caiaphas, Annas, and the Sanhedrin. Everybody being punished in hell for greed, heresy, usury, and counterfeiting (all of which Jews were commonly accused of during the Middle Ages) is a gentile.
• The hypothetical Indian man in Paradiso 19 should be included here, as it involves Dante challenging the fairness over whether or not a virtuous pagan who lived in an area without Christianity can still go to heaven rather than Limbo.
• Dante put a few Muslims in Limbo. (Or could this go under Fair For Its Day?)

I would also strongly suggest modifying the examples listed for The Divine Comedy in Values Dissonance/Literature and Values Resonance/Literature. (I'm especially confused as to why the Dissonance page listed examples of Resonance instead.)

Edited by chatot30 on Sep 28th 2023 at 7:48:06 AM

Someone removed an entire section from Power Rangers Samurai citing "Deleting post 2000 examples" but there's 2 problems. 1-It left a Power Rangers Time Force example despite being a post 2000 season and 2- Not every single Values Dissonance example is due to time. Some are due to local Values Dissonance. Or did we alter the trope due to misuse and now it doesnt allow Japan vs West dissonance for example?

What page is this? I can't find it

Live-Action TV

• Power Rangers Samurai plays out like this, because it barely alters anything from the original Sentai script, which results in a diverse, and western, group of Power Rangers acting very strangely to most western viewers, portraying Japanese values.
  • All of them have been trained to be Samurai Rangers from childhood onward, and they are expected to drop anything they had going on to take up that duty when called upon. This includes any job they have been holding down. This doesn't bode well to a Western audience, who see no reason why both can't still be performed. Meanwhile, a Japanese audience sees this as appropriate, with familial duty (for the Greater Good) being deemed more important than personal independence.
  • Blue Ranger Kevin chewing out Gold Ranger Antonio for wanting to be a Samurai Ranger when he was never from a Samurai family to begin with. Aside from the obvious problem that none of the original cast are Japanese, this again ties in with the whole family and honor idea. Most people would commend Antonio for doing something that he considers right and working his ass off to become fit for a Samurai Ranger.
  • Mia's line of how "every girl's dream is to get married" and her horrible fear of being a bad cook. While dreaming of getting married is still a rather common idea that any person can have at some point, she puts a lot of emphasis on it and seems to have not much of a life plan beyond that. While her not being a good cook isn't a problem to most Western audiences, it does make more sense to a Japanese audience. In tune with the strict gender roles still present in Japan, getting married is an expected societal norm for women, especially by the age of 25, (while in the West, the 1990s were an era when women postponed marriage until their 30s or forewent it), and a housewife is expected to be a good cook (which in the West literally means Stay in the Kitchen).

Sorry for not putting this here. Thought I should have discussed it before posting here.

Edited by AegisP on Aug 6th 2023 at 2:53:52 AM

This is on Other under a folder for Public Service Announcements:

• Many bicycle safety P.S.A.s released prior to 1975 would fall under this, because a helmet wasn't included in the safety rules. There is a difference from a bike PSA from 1958, like Bicycle Clown and this one from American Automobile Association called Bike Safe, Bike Smart from 2009. Both have the same road rules but the motor club one would be more acceptable today.
  • In other contexts the older one would be more acceptable. Calling for cyclists to wear helmets tends to anger many bike activists (especially in Europe) and some even believe it to be some sort of Conspiracy on part of the auto lobby. Just look who made the pro helmet ad. Here cycling advocate Mikael Colville Andersen from Denmark passionately argues against helmets.

That last part seems to be arguing that it isn't an example because some people don't like bike helmets.

The question is should I: A. Remove the last note for being natter B. Remove the whole thing for being a general example

Edited by fragglelover on Aug 13th 2023 at 12:40:02 PM

Yeah, that might be a general example we have here. IDK if the second bullet should be listened to mostly because people simply disliking safety advice doesn't negate the value of that safety advice, but -shrug-

To be honest, I was mostly bringing it up because the second bullet point has always bugged me (whatever you feel about bike helmets, it is true that anything discussing bike safety nowadays will have "wear a helmet" as one of the major rules, especially if it's aimed at kids), but when I pasted it here, I realized that it was probably a general example.

Just because there are some groups who dislike helmets doesn't negate the fact that in America, helmets are more generally strongly encouraged in biking PSAs than they were decades ago. If the cultural differences in Europe are more lenient, that can be the basis of a different location-based example, but as written, it reads like natter about how some people just don't wanna wear helmets.

Just noticed this was added to YMMV.Kamen Rider Zero One:

• Values Dissonance: Zero-One's optimistic view towards AI discernably places it before the development of advanced AI programs like Chat GPT and sharp rise in fear of AI replacing human workers. In particular, in two separate episodes, Zero-One features HumaGears capable of drawing art and acting in movies, things that would become the subject of controversy later on due to things like the 2023 SAG-AFTRA strike, which was motivated in part by the worry of production companies using AI actors instead of human ones.

Keep in mind, the whole page is on a watchlist for complaining, so I am concerned about this. Thoughts?

That is way too recent, and because it's not a Japan Vs America difference (from what I can tell) it should be cut.

The AI in question are Ridiculously Human Robots, which feels too fantastical and far removed from current AI debates. If portraying robots positively counted as Values Dissonance, then like a lot of science fiction would be damned.

Yeeeeeaaah given how many people don't seem able or willing to distinguish between the Job-Stealing Robot and Skynet scenarios I was immediately suspicious on seeing that.

Yeah there's a big difference between "AI" as defined by sci-fi and what we have in the real world.

In fact, im pretty the real world stuff is only called that as some kind of marketing gimmick

The real world concerns about AI are largely incompatible with an actual artificially created intelligent mind

Maybe send a misuse notifier to whoever wrote that as its very weird sounding. And it's not good to encourage people to do that.

Edited by miraculous on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:34:27 AM

I found one for Space Channle 5, which may be half-right, but I don't like how it's worded. And yes, I've even included the links to other tropes.

Space Channel 5

• Values Dissonance: Part 2 has this a bit. In the Japanese version, Purge is actually mentally disabled/insane to the point where he can't function in society properly and has delusions that he's a messiah that has to save everyone by dancing. So instead of getting him help like any normal person would, Ulala and the rest of the galaxy send him flying into space. And even for a lighthearted series that shouldn't be taken seriously, that's terrible. The US version waters down Purge a bit, and makes him bratty so it feels like he got what he deserved. This is because the Japanese tend to view delusions of grandeur as something insanely bad and very dangerous with pretty terrible immediate consequences, regardless of the reasons behind it.

Whilst it may have a point about Purge acting out due to a mental disability rather then malice. I don't think it's realy fair for them to call Ulala out on how she handled it.

Firstly, the whole "instead of getting him help like any normal person would", seems kind of harsh.

As for the "Ulala and the rest of the galaxy send him flying into space" bit, that's Ron the Death Eater levels of unfair. I mean, in context, Purge literally about to KILL everyone useing a satellite, and the whole "sending him flying into space" was merely an act of self-defence, by deflecting the attack that was meant for them.

Last time I checked, there is nothing unjustified about killing an attacker in self-defence, even if that attacker has no control over their actions due to a mental illness. It's no different from shooting a rabid dog. Sure it's not the dogs fault, but it's still a danger. (not that I'm saying people with mental disabilities are dogs, but same principle)

That sounds reasonable.

I changed it.

This is on the music subpage of VD:

• "You Keep Me Hangin' On" (originally by The Supremes, covered by Vanilla Fudge and Kim Wilde) is a song about a woman trying to escape an abusive relationship, who for the most part is sympathetic. Then, it gets to the line "Why don't you be a man about it?" which would make the woman sound sexist and not too much better than her ex.

Found this on YMMV.Rhapsody A Musical Adventure

• Values Dissonance: After the Frog Kingdom, if you pick up Michael and Caroline's dolls they say they were in the wrong for putting their needs above the kingdom, even though they were clearly in love, happy to be together, and the King went back on his word just to kill Michael.

I don't even know what the entry is trying to say...

Bump, so that someone can reply to my previous post and the one after it.

Can I add this to The Black Eyed Peas?

I would say so, though I recall the bowdlerized version overshadowed the original even before this entry would've qualified.

Alright then.

Agree with the entry. I am... frankly surprised that word was seen as okay even in 2002, to be honest.