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Values Dissonance/Resonance Cleanup

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This is the official thread for Values Dissonance, Deliberate Values Dissonance, Fair for Its Day, and Values Resonance. A 20-year waiting period has been placed on the “values” tropes, due to various misuse and shoehorning.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 5th 2023 at 9:07:15 AM

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#1026: Aug 19th 2022 at 5:49:33 PM

Yeah, that makes no sense. I don't know much about The Shield (and tend to confuse it with The Wire) but what's written is pretty clearly NOT describing "copaganda" of the sort that tends to become more uncomfortable to audiences that didn't already know about Police Brutality in real life.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#1027: Aug 21st 2022 at 3:37:55 PM

The thing that confused me was the fact that even the trope page admits the main characters lie and cover up crimes as part of the Villain Protagnoist thing which seems to really confuse me on what exactly is wrong in its day. Since the entire show seems to take a really negative take on policing in general. Am I missing something ?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
PlasmaPower Piece of Cake. Since: Jan, 2015
Piece of Cake.
#1028: Aug 21st 2022 at 8:01:53 PM

WesternAnimation.Toon Makers Sailor Moon

  • Values Resonance: Sailor Mercury is a wheelchair bound superhero and, although played by a non-disabled actress, it shows a very respectful and non-stereotypical character - especially when disability representation is still a hot talking point in the industry.

I'm not sure if "wheelchair character exists" is cause for an entry. I still get Inspirationally Disadvantaged vibes from it looking at the pilot recently. It might fit Fair for Its Day better if that's anything to go by.

Edited by PlasmaPower on Aug 21st 2022 at 8:05:45 AM

Thomas fans needed! Come join me in the the show's cleanup thread!
Nen_desharu Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire from Greater Smash Bros. Universe or Toronto Since: Aug, 2020 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire
#1029: Aug 21st 2022 at 8:52:14 PM

[up]As a reminder, Fair for Its Day examples need to be at least 15 years old before they can be included.

Edited by Nen_desharu on Aug 21st 2022 at 11:52:27 AM

Kirby is awesome.
PlasmaPower Piece of Cake. Since: Jan, 2015
Piece of Cake.
#1030: Aug 21st 2022 at 8:54:45 PM

[up] And this is over 15 years old.

Thomas fans needed! Come join me in the the show's cleanup thread!
Nen_desharu Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire from Greater Smash Bros. Universe or Toronto Since: Aug, 2020 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire
#1031: Aug 21st 2022 at 8:58:55 PM

[up][tup]Good

Edited by Nen_desharu on Aug 21st 2022 at 11:59:04 AM

Kirby is awesome.
nanakiro Since: Feb, 2011
#1032: Aug 23rd 2022 at 8:45:59 PM

Given the the comparisons to other police shows of the day in that entry, it seems like the Fair for Its Day wick is arguing that the critical look on policing itself, despite being a popular show about cops, is what made it qualify.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#1033: Aug 24th 2022 at 4:31:33 AM

Yeah but Fair for Its Day is a When a work considered offensive today was actually progressive during the time period it was released.

This premise is literally the same as We Own This City which came out this year? Corrupt group of police officers serve as and shows the issues with the system. To the point it's not saying what's wrong with it back than?

Edited by miraculous on Aug 24th 2022 at 4:31:55 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ponymations Since: Feb, 2022 Relationship Status: A heart full of love
#1034: Aug 29th 2022 at 7:30:48 AM

I want to know if this is an opinion people have or not.

A Doll's House: Values Dissonance: However Nora's decision to leave her children is if anything more controversial now. For all his flaws, the audience in the late 1800s could expect that Torvald would attempt to raise the children right. However to a modern audience with increased awareness of child abuse and parental neglect the situation with Torvald and the children can easily be seen as a powder-keg for childhood trauma. The decision today would be treated with a little more moral ambiguity.note especially since nowadays a woman has far more say in the decision to have children and many people would make the argument that a woman has a responsibility for choosing to have children where in the late 1800s there was much less choice in the matter.

I don't agree that women should stay in unloving relationships just because they have children. If this is a common belief, I'm sad.

ChloeJessica Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
#1035: Aug 29th 2022 at 7:32:14 AM

i think the dissonance isn't saying that she should have stayed in the relationship, but that she should have taken the kids with her when she left.

Edited by ChloeJessica on Aug 29th 2022 at 7:34:15 AM

DustSnitch Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#1036: Aug 29th 2022 at 9:21:40 AM

This seems like misuse because abandoning your kids was frowned upon then and now. Not sure where the dissonance is here, seems like the editor just disliked the ending. I'd cut it.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#1037: Aug 29th 2022 at 12:39:10 PM

There's slightly more acceptance of women abandoning motherhood and childrearing as an act of feminist rebellion in some circles, and I do remember some of that coming up when my English class discussed the play in highschool, but it's mostly the 2000-era kind of narrowminded pop feminism responsible for Real Women Never Wear Dresses, and nowadays you only see it from loony Internet radfems who do not represent a common viewpoint.

Edited by AlleyOop on Aug 29th 2022 at 3:41:35 PM

ArthurEld Since: May, 2014
#1038: Aug 29th 2022 at 1:08:07 PM

Yeah, that should just be cut. The simple fact is, at the time a woman like Nora wouldn't have been able to simply take her children with her. That is one of the many reasons a woman leaving her husband in the 19th century was so rare-she'd basically be forced to abandon her children, as the father would have a stronger legal claim to them in nearly all cases.

Any Values Dissonance entry would have to explain that and point out that Nora didn't just abandon her kids because she didn't want them anymore. The entry makes it sound like Nora decided to abandon her children as its own separate decision, when the whole point of the situation and the reason why her situation was so tragic is that it is not a separate decision-to leave her husband meant also leaving her children.

DustSnitch Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#1039: Aug 29th 2022 at 2:54:24 PM

That is also part of the problem, the play itself doesn't portray her departure as a happy, good thing, but a tragic, necessary end to a bad marriage.

Ponymations Since: Feb, 2022 Relationship Status: A heart full of love
ReddishGuy1 Since: Jul, 2014
#1041: Sep 3rd 2022 at 11:33:36 AM

I found this on the YMMV page for Kyōryū Sentai Zyuranger.

  • Values Dissonance: In "Become Small!", Toshio's overly strict teacher kicked him out of the school building for not doing his homework again. While it's true that in Japan, students are usually sent out of the classroom for misbehaving, but being kicked out of the school building just seemed a bit excessive.
I watched the episode and I'm not sure this qualifies. The teacher's behavior seemed deliberately played over-the-top for comedy and not meant to be a realistic representation of teaching in Japan.

Edited by ReddishGuy1 on Sep 3rd 2022 at 11:34:16 AM

Just imagine something here.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#1042: Sep 3rd 2022 at 11:35:29 AM

The example even implies that this isn't common in Japan either.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Dramatic Since: Jun, 2012
#1043: Sep 12th 2022 at 4:28:16 PM

From Battle Tendency. I think the Values Dissonance entry (about one of the protagonists being a Nazi officer) is valid... but then there's this:

  • Values Resonance: The way that police officers are depicted positively in parts like Diamond is Unbreakable and Vento Aureo may tip off some American viewers given their history of police brutality, but what needs to be kept in mind is that the way that countries like Japan or Italy view their law enforcement is vastly different than how the U.S. views it. That said, the way that police officers from New York are portrayed in Battle Tendency when confronting Smokey is very much accurate to their public portrayal in the 1930s, as well as in more modern times, showing that Araki does indeed pay attention to different worldwide cultures beyond Japan.

I have no idea what this entry is trying to say. There's a tiny bit here that is maybe valid (the scene is a pair of New York City police officers abusing Smokey, a Black teenager), but it's wrapped in tangents about police officers being portrayed positively or neutrally elsewhere in the series, about it being a 1930's period piece, and about Araki being Japanese (and being influenced by Italian cultural attitudes as well?). My instinct is that this entry is an example of the many "police are portrayed slightly positively/negatively, is therefore a Values shoehorn" examples that are scattered around the site, but I want to check with others as to what to do with it.

TBJack The Destroyer of Food from Carolina, Puerto Rico Since: Jul, 2021 Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
The Destroyer of Food
#1044: Sep 13th 2022 at 7:28:51 AM

Seems like yet an other "Police Brutality did not exist until 2020" style shoehorn. Unless someone gives me a good counter-argument I will deleted it soon.

Beware, I live!
Reymma RJ Savoy from Edinburgh Since: Feb, 2015 Relationship Status: Wanna dance with somebody
RJ Savoy
#1045: Sep 13th 2022 at 10:21:40 AM

There is this sentence on Treasures of the Snow:

The main message of the book is forgiveness, which, in this day and age, really needs to be preached more often.

Permission to rewrite to "The novel's Central Theme is the importance of forgiveness"?

Also this on YMMV:

Values Resonance: A story preaching forgiveness? Sign us up!

Edited by Reymma on Sep 13th 2022 at 6:26:26 PM

Stories don't tell us monsters exist; we knew that already. They show us that monsters can be trademarked and milked for years.
fragglelover Since: Jun, 2012
#1047: Sep 14th 2022 at 3:03:06 PM

This is on ValuesDissonance.Calvin And Hobbes (which seems to come up a lot here):

  • A lot of the things Calvin does, ranging from his arguments with Hobbes to his disturbing snowmen to his antics in class, would probably be seen these days as Troubling Unchildlike Behavior and get him taken to a child psychologist, while his parents would receive a visit from social services. The strip also has several large hints that Calvin either has ADHD, schizophrenia, and/or is somewhere on the Autism Spectrum, yet his parents and school constantly dismiss these hints as just as him being his disruptive self (in all fairness, Calvin’s behavior can be genuinely horrible at times, although also in his defense, not entirely unreasonable). In the 1980s/90s, mental conditions like these were far less known or recognized. In fact, Rain Man, which was released during the strip's original run in 1988, was the film that popularized the autism diagnosis. Nowadays, with learning, mental, and social disabilities being more publicly known, and with teachers now being trained to spot those conditions in their students and Special Ed programs being more expansive, it's very likely the school would have suspected Calvin had one or more of those types of disorders/disabilities and ordered his parents to take him to a psychologist for an official diagnosis, especially since Calvin often disrupts school with his antics.

There may be something here worth keeping, but it needs to be shortened if it is...

badtothebaritone (Life not ruined yet) Relationship Status: Snooping as usual
#1048: Sep 14th 2022 at 3:05:11 PM

Does that series really need an entire page? A lot of that stuff seems like overthinking to me.

MrMediaGuy2 Since: Jun, 2015
#1049: Sep 14th 2022 at 3:07:04 PM

[up] I was the one who created it, but I admittedly did it because the examples were filling up the YMMV page. If anyone wants to go through it, cut all the bad examples, and move it the remaining ones back to YMMV, I have no problem with it.

ChloeJessica Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: Awaiting my mail-order bride
#1050: Sep 14th 2022 at 3:07:15 PM

mmm, no, i don't think it flies. the strips run on Rule of Funny and have Negative Continuity most of the time. a lot of that stuff is also not nearly as strange for kids to do as the writeup implies. i think this is a case of someone reading too much into it and trying to apply logical strictures that just don't work. also, the child services thing is... ridiculous. Calvin's parents love him, they do their best, and they're never shown doing anything i would consider neglect or abuse.

(i could go on a tangent about the overdiagnosis of ADHD in kids who just don't have a good outlet for their energy, but i don't think it's really relevant.)


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