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Values Dissonance/Resonance Cleanup

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This is the official thread for Values Dissonance, Deliberate Values Dissonance, Fair for Its Day, and Values Resonance. A 20-year waiting period has been placed on the “values” tropes, due to various misuse and shoehorning.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 5th 2023 at 9:07:15 AM

RustBeard Since: Sep, 2016
#651: Nov 14th 2021 at 9:11:49 AM

[up] Cut it. It doesn't even elaborate what the movie's message about weapons and killing is and how it relates to the gun control debate.

maxwellsilver Since: Sep, 2011
#652: Nov 17th 2021 at 8:36:02 AM

According to Jim

  • Values Dissonance: Jim is a lazy, boorish jerk who, as said above, loves all things macho and hates anything he considers "girly" and "nerdy", is emotionally stunted and frequently lies to his wife in order to get his way. Despite all this, he is present as the pinnacle of what a man/father/husband should be and shouldn't apologize. This show was pretty much created at the height of toxic masculinity portrayals of men in sitcoms. The one time Jim does show any emotion besides being a jerk, the shows paints it as ridiculous and that his wife really wouldn't like him showing any vulnerability.

Right off the bat, the show premiered in October 2001, so only the first few episodes even qualify. This feels like someone just complaining.

RustBeard Since: Sep, 2016
#653: Nov 17th 2021 at 4:37:01 PM

Jim wasn't really portrayed as "the pinnacle of what a man/father/husband should be". Much of the humor was derived from how petty his actions were and more than a few episode had him be wrong or have to learn a lesson.

MissConduct Chew. from Duwang (Rule of Seven) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
Chew.
#654: Nov 19th 2021 at 6:12:31 AM

Here's a Fair for Its Day on the Main Page(!) of Lilith's Brood:

"The series ideas on sex and gender seem very current thirty years after its publication, with the exception of Ooloi using "it" pronouns rather than singular "they.""

The alien race of Lilith's Brood, the Oankali, have three genders - male, female, and Ooloi. The humans in the story are exclusively men and women without much gender nonconformity. There's two pretty major problems with using the Oankali as non-binary icons -

1. The Oankali have Bizarre Alien Reproduction: "The Oankali have an "ooloi" third sex who collect DNA from male and female parents, genetically engineer a blastocyst in a specialized organ, and implant it into the female through their skin. On their own, Oankali children are born to those three parents, but their Half-Human Hybrid children add a human father and mother to the mix." The Ooloi were never meant to be a stand in for non-binaries/gender non-conformists.

2. More importantly, the Oankali are supposed to be the bad guys. They're colonizers by another name. They have a bad case of Superior Species and there's very strong subtext that humans view interbreeding with Oankali as rape. There remain debates thirty years later about whether or not the Oankali were even the slightest bit right (and this page seems a lot more sympathetic to them than most), but it's hard to deny that the work does not present the Oankali as the enlightened progressive species this poster seems to think they are.

I'm not trying to throw Lilith's Brood under the bus, it alongside the rest of the works of Octavia Butler are landmark pieces of African American speculative fiction, but I think it's probably for the best we remove this and its place on Speculative Fiction LGBT. And of course there's still the fact that it's a non-in-universe Fair for Its Day on the Main Page (there is no YMMV page for Lilith's Brood, but the poster should have created one.)

Edited by MissConduct on Nov 19th 2021 at 9:13:03 AM

Koichi really steals? No dignity.
maxwellsilver Since: Sep, 2011
#655: Nov 19th 2021 at 9:27:29 AM

Delete it for being on a main page. Doesn't sound like it qualifies anyway.

Coolnut Since: Jan, 2001
#656: Nov 21st 2021 at 9:07:40 AM

Found this under Values Resonance:

  • "Don't be a sucker" was produced by the US Department of Defence. It's an anti-racism and anti-fascism clip that debunks racism and religious intolerance, explaining how it leads to division. The clip then goes on to explain how intolerant speech led to the rise of Nazi Germany, The Holocaust and WW2 and how normalizing hatred of minorities could cause the same to happen in the USA one day. The clip was made in 1947. The PSA was largely forgotten up until the "Unite the Right" rally in Charlotteville, Virginia in 2017 (alongside the wider context of the Trump Administration) made it viral and exposed how the 1947 message was just as relevant in 2017 with the rise of far-right politics.

This really feels very ROCEJ-y and yet another "it reminds me of a certain former president and his controversies". Cut it?

[down] It's chopped out.

Edited by Coolnut on Nov 21st 2021 at 5:43:29 AM

bwburke94 Friends forevermore from uǝʌɐǝɥ Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
Friends forevermore
#657: Nov 21st 2021 at 1:53:39 PM

[up] Obvious cut.

I had a dog-themed avatar before it was cool.
fragglelover Since: Jun, 2012
#658: Nov 29th 2021 at 11:24:01 AM

This is on We're Back! A Dinosaur's Story:

mightymewtron Angry babby from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Angry babby
#659: Nov 29th 2021 at 12:34:19 PM

I swear that "Stranger Things got shit for child sexualization" bit was put on another Values Dissonance entry somewhere. I don't even think it's true — the criticism was more along the lines of Romantic Plot Tumor, not sexualization.

Anyway, children majing sexual remarks or even just being flirty has always been controversial. We haven't banned it completely. Big Mouth still exists.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
easytorememberhandle Since: Jun, 2011
#660: Nov 29th 2021 at 4:56:40 PM

The best part is that relatively innocent stuff like a kid kissing another kid gets slammed for "sexualization of children". Meanwhile, The Blue Lagoon page which has actual child nudity gets Vindicated by History because "people are more open about erotica" in the modern age. (Although that page also has a bit of a split personality about how much people are accepting it)

MrMediaGuy2 Since: Jun, 2015
#661: Nov 30th 2021 at 8:49:53 AM

This was just added to YMMV.Willy Wonka And The Chocolate Factory.

  • Slugworth getting way too close to Veruca and the other golden ticket winners and whispering in their ear can be a bit uncomfortable for modern viewers, especially since no parents or other adults nearby seem to be put-off by it. With more awareness of child predators, most people today wouldn’t be alright with a stranger invading a child’s personal space.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#662: Nov 30th 2021 at 8:54:16 AM

Thats quite the stretch....

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Libraryseraph Fearless at the core... from Canada (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
Fearless at the core...
#663: Nov 30th 2021 at 8:56:01 AM

[up][up] Are all of these weird values/hindsight examples about "child predators and sexualization" being added by one person?

...and adorable on top!
Coolnut Since: Jan, 2001
#664: Dec 1st 2021 at 2:56:28 PM

I apologize if I am starting an Edit War here, but a troper re-added the "Don't be a sucker" entry under Values Resonance with almost no change (and keeping the Trump hot-button bit, which is still ROCEJ). I removed it again and noted that they should go over the entry here first.

Thoughts? (I will note that VR is really turning into Flame Bait, having many shove their political shoehorning over current and not-too-current-anymore events and people. Seriously, it needs a change.)

Crossover-Enthusiast from an abaondoned mall (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#665: Dec 1st 2021 at 6:37:47 PM

Pretty sure it doesn't count as an edit war if it's part of a cleanup effort, at least that's what people have said on ATT.

Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢
mightymewtron Angry babby from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Angry babby
#666: Dec 1st 2021 at 11:05:00 PM

If there was consensus to remove it before, then it might fall under "correcting a broken rule" which is excepted in edit war rules. You probably should've brought it here again first though. I don't even remember the example.

Edited by mightymewtron on Dec 1st 2021 at 2:05:10 PM

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: I know
#667: Dec 5th 2021 at 1:34:23 AM

He's All That

  • Values Dissonance : The film has a slightly confused message about shallow people trying to get over being shallow... Despite starring a Tik Tok influencer and being heavy on the Product Placement. Also, Padgett's embarrassment at being less filty rich than her friends is undermined by living in a nice middle class home in the same area, with her single mother working insane hours to fund it.

The film came out last summer. Would Broken Aesop or Clueless Aesop fit better.

Edited by Silverblade2 on Dec 5th 2021 at 12:16:40 PM

mightymewtron Angry babby from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Angry babby
#668: Dec 5th 2021 at 1:29:54 PM

Sounds like an Undermined By Reality issue for the first bit, with the latter being more Informed Attribute or Unintentionally Unsympathetic. But nothing here is Values Dissonance at all.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
MissConduct Chew. from Duwang (Rule of Seven) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
Chew.
#669: Dec 5th 2021 at 6:06:13 PM

[up][up][up][up][up] VD and VR have been pretty bad Flame Bait for a while now. I think they ought to need citations like Unfortunate Implications does (VD has also kinda turned into a dumping ground for citationless UI).

Koichi really steals? No dignity.
mightymewtron Angry babby from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Angry babby
#670: Dec 5th 2021 at 6:15:41 PM

I don't think that would help that much, especially for the culture-based ones which don't attract as much attention. I think the problem is more whether certain things really are a product of values dissonance or if we just got older and noticed squicky things we didn't notice as kids. I don't think a citation would help that sort of thing.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
WarJay77 Bonnie's Artistic Cousin from The Void (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Bonnie's Artistic Cousin
#671: Dec 5th 2021 at 6:41:36 PM

And a citation system for VD would just turn it into a UI clone.

Current Project: The Team
Coolnut Since: Jan, 2001
#672: Dec 5th 2021 at 6:54:13 PM

[up]x3 There are days I wish VR received an Example Sectionectomy as it invites a bit too much current-year political soapboxing (some of which are forgotten over the years, like the deleted entry on the Tea Party, for one).

There is a trope there, but I think it should be left in the examples, that is, No On-Page Examples for being too YMMV.

prettycoolguy Since: Nov, 2010
#673: Dec 6th 2021 at 10:10:21 AM

This example on YMMV.Once Upon A Time is confusing and, of course, under 20 years old:

  • Values Dissonance: Seeing the mix of medieval (albeit a sanitized version) mindsets in a modern setting can at times be jarring. Like how Storybrooke forms angry mobs with alarming alacrity, or when someone says, "This is Robin's tent," as if they weren't really saying, "This is where my homeless friend squats."

My initial thought that this is actually Deliberate Values Dissonance, but the way the example is written makes it sound like an audience reaction to something I can't think of now.

mightymewtron Angry babby from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Angry babby
#674: Dec 6th 2021 at 10:12:24 AM

Sounds like someone complaining about a partial Setting Update. Don't think it really fits anywhere right now.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
AHauntedMind from Manchester Since: Jan, 2019
#675: Dec 6th 2021 at 5:27:19 PM

In the 90's, the movie was praised, and still gets praised, for Mulan's portrayal as a badass Action Girl who defies the sexist mentality of society. During the 2000s, some viewers criticized the hint of romance with Shang, even though it's only a Maybe Ever After, since they felt it implies that not even a woman who has saved China can be complete without a man. Also circles back into Values Resonance as, by the late 2010s, it's become common for people to take issue with the idea that a woman needs to be single to be considered "progressive" and the implication that having any kind of romantic interest undermines their status as a female role model, even when they're clearly the one in charge (as is the case with Mulan and Shang), which many now see as reductive and wrongfully shaming women for not being purely butch and utterly non-feminine.

This example from Mulan is arguing with itself, and doesn't seem to fit.


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