This is the official thread for Values Dissonance, Deliberate Values Dissonance, Fair for Its Day, and Values Resonance. A 20-year waiting period has been placed on the “values” tropes, due to various misuse and shoehorning.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 5th 2023 at 9:07:15 AM
....I don't get it. Don't we still have tons of vigilante /robin hood style thieves in fiction even now. Loveable Rogue is a thing. What's the dissonance ?
Edited by miraculous on Jun 1st 2021 at 4:37:30 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."- Values Resonance: In recent years, having sex with an intoxicated person while one party is sober had become a hot-button issue, but back in the late '90s, it wasn't as controversial. In the '60s, people were even more loose about consent. So Austin, from the '60s in the 90s and refusing to have sex with Vanessa when she comes on to him while drunk, is incredibly refreshing to see.
The gushing at the end was added in recently. Don't know if the example fits or not.
Thomas fans needed! Come join me in the the show's cleanup thread!Eh, I'd say it counts, as I do remember people praising the scene for displaying consent issues during an era (the 90's, not the 60's, as the 60's is the setting but not the release date) when they weren't taken as seriously (especially for "dubious consent" issues i.e. sex with an intoxicated person). I think the last sentence is a bit confusingly worded but it gives more specific context about the scene so that's helpful.
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.Honestly, the gushing just makes it seem like there's no 90s movies that know what consent is.
Thomas fans needed! Come join me in the the show's cleanup thread!Values Dissonance: Being made in The '50s, this would be a given.
- In "Equal Rights," the girls demand to be treated equally. The group goes out for dinner, and Lucy and Ethel's confusion when their husbands don't help them with their coats and pull out their chairs is Played for Laughs. The hilarity mounts when Ricky and Fred leave without paying for Lucy or Ethel, leaving them to wash dishes to pay off their half of the bill.
I haven't actually watched the show myself, I just came across this page whilst exploring. Does this realy count? I mean, it's still common curtesy today for the man to help the woman with her coats and pull out chairs, so Lucy and Ethel's confusion would still be funny today. But then again, I don't know. I live in Britain, we tend to be more chivalrous.
The basic set up for the joke is "women who say that want equal treatment are being silly, they don't really want equality", which is definitely not a joke that would go without controversy today. And I think that kind of old-school chivalry is seen as pretty old fashioned today, not necessarily bad, but not a universal expectation.
Edited by TheMountainKing on Jun 6th 2021 at 9:03:11 AM
In case anyone's interested, here is the entire list. I think most of it's legit, but I though I'd but it here in case anyone else has any problems with any of the examples.
- Values Dissonance: Being made in The '50s, this would be a given.
- In "The Girls Want to Go To A Nightclub," Lucy and Ethel lie that they have dates to make an excuse to go without their husbands. In the twenty-first century, they'd be able to go on their own without needing a date.
- "The Diet": Ricky has Condescending Compassion about Lucy wanting to go into show business, telling her that it's no good due to her "weight problems". Lucy in the climax shows that she can sing and dance well and even Ricky is surprised. These days, he'd be more likely to point out the practicalities that performing has high energy demands.
- In "Equal Rights," the girls demand to be treated equally. The group goes out for dinner, and Lucy and Ethel's confusion when their husbands don't help them with their coats and pull out their chairs is Played for Laughs. The hilarity mounts when Ricky and Fred leave without paying for Lucy or Ethel, leaving them to wash dishes to pay off their half of the bill.
- "Pioneer Women" has The Bet happen when Lucy and Ethel ask for their husbands to buy a dishwasher, only to be called "spoiled" despite Luxy handwashing 219,000 dishes during their marriage. Ricky condescendingly says that all they have to do is press a button or flip a switch while their grandparents worked without any electrical appliances. Now try imagining how many partners would get away with calling their spouses "lazy" or spoiled when they're doing all the housework and requesting a dishwasher.
- "Job Switching" has the inciting incident where Ricky tells off Lucy for emptying their shared bank account at the hair salon. He and Fred start complaining about their wives spending their wages; Lucy and Ethel naturally take offense. Women at the time couldn't hold their own bank accounts, but with changing times Lucy could have a separate account and that would have avoided the problem.
- On that note, at an employment agency, the man helping Lucy and Ethel find jobs doesn't ask for their resumes as they get into a Duck Season, Rabbit Season argument. That might have avoided the candy fiasco if they had shown up with papers for their skills.
- Having white people play "Indians" in Ricky's show comes up fairly frequently. While more than acceptable in the time it was filmed in, it's known to be an extremely offensive practice today.
- Much like The Honeymooners, Ricky would occasionally make an empty threat to hit Lucy, which would never be seen today even at that level. Desi Arnaz actually mocked this himself when he hosted an episode of Saturday Night Live and presented a series of "failed concepts" for the show, including one where Ricky was openly physically abusive called "I Loathe Lucy."
- When miming the concept of "rice" (It Makes Sense in Context) Lucy acts out some Chinese stereotypes that would be considered offensive now.
- The entirety of "Lucy Gets a Black Eye" would never pass censors of any kind today. The basic plot of the episode: Lucy and Ricky are both excited about a new thriller novel, and, because they can't wait for the other to finish, opt to read it aloud like a play. Unfortunately, Ethel overhears them reciting the lines of a fight scene and thinks they're actually arguing. Ricky then gets overeager and accidentally drops the book; it flies across the room and gives Lucy a black eye. We as the audience know that it's totally innocent, but Ethel is convinced that Ricky deliberately punched his wife and becomes terrified for her. Later, when Ethel comes to get details about what happened and refuses to believe the odd but true incident, a frustrated Lucy concocts "a real juicy story" about Ricky grabbing, punching, and kicking at her, and reenacts the fictional battle, including her cowering in fear and begging for mercy. And this is all Played for Laughs. The audience goes wild at Lucy's antics, but it's genuinely disturbing to see her realistically whimpering in fear and crying as she describes being brutally beaten by her husband, even she's just pretending.
- Even Ethel's concerned attitude has problematic elements—while she is genuinely worried about Lucy, she's also clearly excited to hear her gossip about Ricky and eagerly fills in more aggressive details herself. The notion of anyone, let alone someone's best friend, treating domestic abuse of any kind so flippantly is shocking.
- In the same sequence, Lucy remarks "You know how wild those Cubans are" regarding Ricky's temper, a rather racist notion that, tropes aside, likely wouldn't fly today.
- One early episode, "Lucy Thinks Ricky is Trying to Murder Her," sees Ricky straight-up drugging Lucy's drink with a sleeping pill (at Fred's suggestion, this being something he often does to Ethel); absolutely no one sees a problem with this. Like "The Black Eye" above, it's used as a joke in conjunction with the episode's overall plot (Lucy has crime on the brain because of a novel she's reading, and circumstances make her jump to the conclusion that Ricky is going to murder her and marry another woman)—Lucy assumes that the pill she saw Ricky drop into her glass is poison, so she does some cup switching to keep herself safe. Again, it's all Played for Laughs, and the audience thinks it is hilarious that a man is attempting to drug his wife.
- One episode at the beginning of the Ricardos planning a trip to California indulges in "crazy women drivers" jokes on Lucy's behalf, though the reason that Lucy and Ethel haven't learned to drive (because they live in Manhattan) is justifiable. However, several episodes later in "First Stop", Lucy is shown to drive capably through unfamiliar country roads at night, after she has likely had several more lessons that have gone better.
- On a Meta Level, to help alleviate Keith Thibodeaux's anxiety to play Little Ricky, Lucille Ball and Desi Arnaz hired a hypnotist that would visit him in his dressing room before shooting his scenes, placing him in a trance and helping him relax during shooting. While it was, as he described it, done out of concern the two had for him, it does seem rather creepy on some level. Especially given that his parents were never informed that their young son was being hypnotized without their knowledge, something that clearly would never fly today.
I would say cut the last one because it's something that happened in real life, and isn't actually part of the work in question.
"The Diet" might be valid but would need some rewording.
The others look OK.
Ukrainian Red Cross- Values Dissonance:
- Cid's treatment of Shera, where he shouts at her, orders her around, and insults her, and Shera accepts it all because she feels she deserves it, would go over much different these days with society's heightened awareness of domestic abuse and battered women.
This entry doesn't mention Cid ever hitting her? I mean I'm aware of emotional abuse but "battered women" seems to imply that it's equating this situation to physical abuse. Also don't remember if this was portrayed as a bad thing in the game or not.
Edited by PlasmaPower on Jun 11th 2021 at 6:29:06 AM
Thomas fans needed! Come join me in the the show's cleanup thread!Isn't that character just generally cranky and verbally abusive to everyone?
"I like girls, but now, it's about justice."I have seen varioius people talk about how Cid's treatment of Shera has aged badly, and how, while he was always kind of a jerk and an antihero, growing consciousness of how dire domestic abuse is has caused him to become more Unintentionally Unsympathetic in the process, and that Shera is a Love Martyr for just accepting it.
Although, that doesn’t answer the question about how the game depicts it.
From YMMV.Were Back A Dinosaurs Story.
- Values Dissonance: Cecilia's flirtatiousness with Louie, first when giving him bedroom eyes when he asks if she's a debutante and later when they kiss on the lips in the climax, was seen as gross in an overly cutesy way in the '90s. After The New '10s, when even the most gently implied sexualization of minors is highly frowned upon (hi, Stranger Things!), it comes off as gross for an entirely different reason.
Seeing pedophilia in what amounts to Puppy Love (both of those characters are kids) is a bizarre take, to say the least.
"I like girls, but now, it's about justice."Would this count as Values Resonance? In the original Prom Night (the one with Jamie Lee Curtis), Curtis' character Kim is forcibly kissed by Lou, the resident school bully. Kim's brother Alex steps in and punches Lou, causing a fight with Lou and his cronies. Both boys (Lou and Alex) are hauled to the principal's office, where the former is suspended indefinitely, so the case of Lou harassing Kim is treated pretty seriously for the film's time period (The '80s).
Scene can be viewed here
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Edited by k410ren on Jun 13th 2021 at 6:53:16 AM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills![]()
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Do people even get mad at Stranger Things for sexualizing the kids? I've seen the criticism of the love subplot in Season 3 but I think that was more a criticism of Character Derailment in general.
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I think that even in the 80s, people weren't OK with forcefully kissing somebody without their consent.
Just watch any time Sean Connery's James Bond kissed anybody.
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and killsHeck, there's a whole bunch of tropes about it- like "Shut Up" Kiss and Forceful Kiss.
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I don't really understand this example from Harold and Maude: