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Unclear Description: Batman Can Breathe In Space

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Deadlock Clock: Jan 30th 2021 at 11:59:00 PM
LupoCani (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#1: Jul 8th 2020 at 3:22:07 AM

Currently, the Batman Can Breathe in Space trope page lists several kinds of examples.

(1) Characters who can comfortably survive in space when this is unrealistic.

(2) Characters who can comfortably survive in space, explicitly on account of some internal property like superpowers or alien biology.

(3) Characters who can comfortably survive in space, with no explicit explanation, but superpowers or alien biology that could plausibly allow it.

(4) Characters who can comfortably survive in space on account of some external aid less than a full spacesuit.

(5) Characters who, like humans in real life, can survive a short time of space exposure, but may require medical care afterwards.

The trope description seems to imply the trope is exclusively about (1), but names The Needless as a supertrope, which appears to be solely about characters with explicit superhuman ability to survive things unaided, ie (2,3). (The Needless and Super Not-Drowning Skills disagree on whether the latter is a suptrope of the former)

As I see it, it would be plausible for the trope to encompass (1) exclusively, (analogous to Super Not-Drowning Skills) in which case we can leave the description as it is, except maybe a clarification that (2,3,4,5) are Not This Trope, but (2,3,4,5)-examples would need pruning. In this case, I would argue it is not a subtrope of The Needless.

Alternatively, we could accept that (1,2,3,4) are all valid examples, in which case the trope description should be updated to reflect this. In this case, it would probably still be a subtrope of The Needless.

(Relatedly - is Super Not-Drowning Skills a subtrope of The Needless? The former is explicitly restricted to examples without in-universe explanation, while the latter seems to only be about in-universe abilities. The Needless lists Super Not-Drowning Skills as a subtrope, while the latter only says "see also The Needless". I'd bring it up separately, but it seems to be substantially the same question.)

I don't think (5) is an example under any reasonable formulation of the trope, though perhaps current examples would instead be notable Aversions.

(A minor technical issue - turns out the title is supposed to be a wiki word, but I can't edit that. Hopefully the mod who does or does not unlock this can?)

Edited by LupoCani on Jul 8th 2020 at 9:33:14 AM

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#2: Jul 17th 2020 at 5:38:31 AM

Opening, bumping, fixed thread tag.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#3: Jul 17th 2020 at 5:58:33 AM

Uh... do you have a wick check so we can see if the examples are confused about usage as well?

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#4: Jul 17th 2020 at 6:13:14 AM

Seems like it is, if the trope is defined as lack of realism (lots of examples of people who have appropriate superpowers). Not that description/definition issues necessarily require a wick check.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#5: Jul 18th 2020 at 10:34:06 AM

I think that

(1) Characters who can comfortably survive in space when this is unrealistic.

(4) Characters who can comfortably survive in space on account of some external aid less than a full spacesuit.

are reasonable for the trope and that if we expanded the definition to include superhuman abilities, then we would need to rename the trope.

I also think that

(5) Characters who, like humans in real life, can survive a short time of space exposure, but may require medical care afterwards.
(alternatively phrased as "realistic portrayals of human-equivalent characters in space") should be kept as aversions. Essentially I'm advocating that "humans outside of an atmosphere without spacesuits" is a tropable concept and that our understanding of what happens in that situation evolves/d over time.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
naturalironist from The Information Superhighway Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#6: Jul 18th 2020 at 11:07:52 AM

3 is the definition I have in mind when I think about this trope.

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#7: Jul 18th 2020 at 11:11:42 AM

[up] Same here.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#8: Jul 18th 2020 at 5:36:06 PM

Really? Bruce Wayne doesn't have any alien biology or superpowers, so why do you draw that conclusion?

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#9: Jul 18th 2020 at 6:22:50 PM

Because he's Batman. Comic book stuff, superhero stuff. While Bruce isn't super-powered by any means, he's still "special", so I'm willing to make the logic leap that "yeah, he's a super-hero, of course he can breathe in space".

No, it doesn't make sense, but that's where the logic comes from.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
eroock Since: Sep, 2012
#10: Jul 19th 2020 at 3:40:01 AM

^ But isn't Batman's schtick that he acts as a superhero by using gadgets instead of superpowers? Showing him breathing in space without a device would break that internal logic, no.

Laukku from Finland Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Married to the job
#11: Jul 19th 2020 at 5:41:06 AM

(1) with Tropes Are Flexible allowing for (3) is my take on this trope. The others would be non-straight cases at best.

[up]It's that you intuitively accept him breathing in space, before Fridge Logic kicks in and you remember that yes, he shouldn't be able to. A (1) that at first seems a (2). Alternately, you just assume he has a device that the audience wasn't told about.

Edited by Laukku on Jul 19th 2020 at 3:44:54 PM

crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#12: Jul 19th 2020 at 8:08:32 AM

While Bruce isn't super-powered by any means, he's still "special", so I'm willing to make the logic leap that "yeah, he's a super-hero, of course he can breathe in space".
My point is that the logical reasoning you just gave doesn't support the definition where superpowers/alien-biology allows for naked space travel. It doesn't give a reason why Wayne is in space and Gordon can't be; both are comicbook protagonists in superhero stories.

Your chain of logic better supports (6) characters in space without the equipment that Real Life humans need to survive. Which, I would contend, means there is no problem and the page can be left as-is.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#13: Jul 19th 2020 at 8:55:07 AM

I mean, I guess it does. Like I said, I know the association makes zero sense, but this is how I see the trope and how I justify the title along with it. -shrug-

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
LupoCani (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#14: Jul 20th 2020 at 12:23:57 PM

Unless the viewer-imagined explanation is "he's Batman, surely he's got a space-breathing gadget we just haven't heard of", it would fall under (1). (Though of course, my impromptu categorisation isn't perfect, and there are edge cases and combinations.)

As for the trope itself, (1,3) seems like a good solution. In this case, we should probably borrow the Super Not-Drowning Skills setup of explicitly separating definitely unjustified examples and possibly unjustified examples in separate lists, to ensure that Examples Are Not Arguable.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#15: Aug 20th 2020 at 1:02:32 PM

Clock is set.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Spark9 Since: Nov, 2010
#16: Aug 21st 2020 at 12:02:58 AM

I always thought the trope was (1); it makes absolutely no sense for a character to breathe in space, but he does anyway. Basically, a subtrope of MST3K Mantra and/or A Wizard Did It.

That said, the discussion in this thread shows to me that the name is pretty unclear. Should we do something about that? Or just crowner which of the five it is, and remove examples that don't fit?

FernandoLemon Nobody Here from Argentina (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Staying up all night to get lucky
#17: Aug 21st 2020 at 7:48:19 AM

[up] I'm all for that.

Edited by FernandoLemon on Aug 21st 2020 at 11:56:03 AM

I'd like to apologize for all this.
LaundryPizza03 Maintenance? from Texas Since: Aug, 2020
Maintenance?
#19: Sep 8th 2020 at 10:49:57 PM

[up][tup] Same here. My best guess would be renaming to Implausible Space Survival and restricting the trope to definitions (1) and possibly (3) or (4).

I'm back!
Siegfried1337 Calabash. from The Eastern Luminant Since: Sep, 2018 Relationship Status: Will you go out with me to the End?
Snicka Since: Jun, 2011
FernandoLemon Nobody Here from Argentina (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Staying up all night to get lucky
#22: Sep 10th 2020 at 8:05:58 AM

We're already a behind, so let's make a crowner. First, however, we need options.

Rename is one, for certain, and I believe we should also add an entry for each of the types mentioned in the wick check. Not starting a crowner yet until I get consensus on these.

I'd like to apologize for all this.
Serac she/her (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
she/her
#23: Sep 10th 2020 at 9:07:06 AM

[up] So the crowner would include one entry for renaming and five more entries that say "Allow <this type of example> on the page."? Sounds good to me.

10th Sep '20 11:21:43 AM

Crown Description:

"Split" and "soft-split" are mutually exclusive.

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