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Star Trek: Lower Decks

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XMenMutant22 The Feline Follies of Felix the Cat Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
#151: Jan 18th 2022 at 7:49:35 PM

Lower Decks has been officially renewed for a Season Four! Season Three is expected to drop within Summer 2022.

Dgon Since: Dec, 2015
#152: Feb 21st 2022 at 12:34:06 PM

After finishing the second season here my humble thoughts. As usually I would like to highlight the good and the bad for me.

THE BAD.

  • Mariner. Oh Lucifer how I hate that character. Rarely have I come across a character that I found so hateful. What a selfish, reckless, uncaring for other, sociopathic, irresponsible, self-absorbed character. And the fact that she never gets punished by her behavior or always is ends as the “winner” of any situation, brings to my mind the terms Mary Sue and Writer’s pet way too often.
And the excuses that the writers find to have her half-naked in most episodes are becoming ridiculous.
  • I know animation allows for a lot of imaginative and creative things that other mediums don’t, like having a character that multiplies or that splits his body in flying parts. But although Star Trek was never hard science fiction by any standard that kind of stuffs is just magic. Is already in the fantasy realm, not soft sci-fi that was until now where Star Trek always manage to remain.
  • Some references fall flat. Is borderline Nostalgia Critic-mentality that a pop reference is the joke in itself (ahem, Amuck for example or mentioning every character that more or less relates to another specie like Quark or Seven of Nine) are they thinking that referring other shows gratuitously is “funny” somehow?

THE GOOD

  • All other characters apart from Mariner, I like them all. I wish we could spend more time with them. They make me want to learn more about them or meet them in person.
  • I had a lot of laughs with the cat doctor, probably because I have a cat, and probably would act like that if were an anthro.
  • How they showed the Orions culture, I like it a lot. It felt like a post-apocalyptic Mad Max-like movie for a while. We seldom see the Orions in their worlds and it was very interesting and well represented. Wish it wasn’t so short (see, that’s the kind of stuff you should do, make your audience wanting more not the other way around).
  • The episode with the lower decks of the other races was magnificent, how brilliant writing. You really get to feel how different yet identifiable their cultures and environments are making you spent a good time with an interesting and refreshing episode that is different to others. Excellent writing right there which I think no other show on the franchise have a similar episode except for one where Riker goes to serve in a Klingon ship.

THE NEUTRAL

  • The episode with them gathering anomalies felt like a Gravity Falls of Ducktales episode (you know, people reacting routinely to a series of unrelated fantastic magical creatures/devices). Not necesary a bad thing but I think is a formula that is starting to get tiring and in some cases is in detriment with the sense of adventure (a problem that I had with Ducktales despite enjoyng the show, those kind of episodes make me feel like "Well if the characters really do not feel any risk or sense of awe for all these strange occurences/creatures around why should I").

Edited by Dgon on Feb 21st 2022 at 12:37:04 PM

KnightofLsama Since: Sep, 2010
#153: Feb 22nd 2022 at 1:12:33 AM

I know animation allows for a lot of imaginative and creative things that other mediums don’t, like having a character that multiplies or that splits his body in flying parts. But although Star Trek was never hard science fiction by any standard that kind of stuffs is just magic. Is already in the fantasy realm, not soft sci-fi that was until now where Star Trek always manage to remain.

Hate to break it to you... but that's not a new introduction. The split your body into multiple parts is actually a species that was originally introduced way back in Star Trek: The Animated Series

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#154: Feb 22nd 2022 at 5:08:26 AM

[up] And the species does this thing where they switch back and forth between four and five fingers on each hand, even in Lower Decks, because of animation errors in the original show.

Dgon Since: Dec, 2015
#155: Feb 22nd 2022 at 8:53:58 AM

The animated series is non canonical, Lower Decks no. In any case is cherry picking focus on one magical element of the bunch.

HeyMikey Since: Jul, 2015
#156: Feb 22nd 2022 at 11:29:33 AM

You only gave us two examples. So one, we are responding to one of your two examples.

The animated series is a canonical as however the showrunners/Paramount wants to make it. And the showrunners have decided that TAS should be included by various references, like Shari, the Kzinti ensign, Giant Spock, and records referencing TAS by showing them in that art style and Catians, of which Dr. T'ana is one, premiered and were most prominent in TAS. Even if you don't enjoy TAS, for the show TAS is considered canon and thus has to be considered when gauging what is or isn't consistent with the universe.

Also, considering the fantastic things already in the Star Trek universe, it would be fairly easy to technobabble the Dooplers if you really wanted. The Dooplers are basically the Tribbles on overdrive and the universe allows for god-powers, as we already have the Greek pantheon or Gary Mitchell or the myriad of ways people have come back from the dead.

And though referential humor is not everyone's cup of tea, it is useful for quick and easy world building and can be made natural since like the Tamarians, people do enjoy speaking in similes/metaphors from time to time, and Easter Eggs are a time honored media tradition. Not everyone will enjoy it, but a lot of Lower Decks fans enjoy it as a nice nostalgia burst as well as provide context for the characters and the world they live in. Like, you might expect a young ensign big on honor and Klingon victories to recall the Battle of Klach D'kel Brakt.

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#157: Feb 22nd 2022 at 11:39:51 AM

The way the reference jokes work also means the show is a weirdly good entry point for new fans? I've gotten three people into Trek via Lower Decks. For them, the reference jokes change from "hah, this person mentioned Data's severed head in Time's Arrow" to "I wonder who this Data is, hey Zendervai, what part of the franchise is that referencing?"

a day or so later

"Huh, that was a fun episode, Mark Twain was pretty good in it."

It actually kind of baffles me that the show worked this well at introducing people but it's pretty good that it does.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#158: Feb 22nd 2022 at 11:47:41 AM

It's the deep cuts.

I still can believe we got a reference to the black goo asshole who killed Tasha Yarr.

In fact, I think Lower Decks would be good for even bringing up the parts of the franchise most people don't care for and putting it in a new light.

One Strip! One Strip!
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#159: Feb 22nd 2022 at 11:49:50 AM

It also makes the one reference joke where Dr. T'Ana has no idea who the referenced doctor is a lot funnier.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#160: Feb 22nd 2022 at 11:51:28 AM

Yeah, one of Lower Decks' primary focuses has been to try and reference as much of the Star Trek franchise's history as they can, to both make it a gateway to what the franchise can do and to to make it a treat for the fans who have been following the franchise all this time.

The animated series is a canonical as however the showrunners/Paramount wants to make it.

In addition, this is hardly the first time something canonical has referenced or included an element that was originally from the Animated Series.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Feb 22nd 2022 at 11:53:32 AM

Dgon Since: Dec, 2015
#161: Feb 22nd 2022 at 12:52:02 PM

[up] I never said it isn't, I just was saying that having aliens with flying body parts was, until Lowe Decks, non-canonical. Of course maybe at some point the animated series, the same where The Devil actually appears, may someday be fully canonical in which case certainly Star Trek would be a fantasy show, not a sci-fi show, but that's another matter. For the time being the only canonical alien with antigravity flying parts that biologically get interconnected and can be controlled by the subjects brain from the distance is the one seen in Lower Decks. No amount of technobable can solve that unless Q did it.

OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#162: Feb 22nd 2022 at 1:06:01 PM

Rogue AI trying to wipe out all life is so common they have an entire building of imprisoned AI arguing with each other over how THEY will exterminate humanity and not the rest.

Running into a Devil or Two wouldn’t be farfetched.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#163: Feb 22nd 2022 at 1:09:30 PM

Oh. Maybe they'll bring back Ardra.

If you're gonna do a devil reference in Trek, it makes sense to do another deep cut with her.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Feb 22nd 2022 at 1:14:24 AM

One Strip! One Strip!
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#164: Feb 22nd 2022 at 1:17:28 PM

The Padronians are "colony creatures". In context, that seems to mean that a given Padronian is actually three separate entities in symbiosis, and telepathy is an established thing which easily covers how they work in sync even when separated.

It's really weird, but so is the macrovirus which was also inexplicably capable of anti-gravity for no reason, so it's not like there's no precedent for it.

The Devil thing could very easily just be one of the many, many, many godlike entities in the franchise playing a joke on the dumb humans (and one Vulcan).

Edited by Zendervai on Feb 22nd 2022 at 4:19:43 AM

Dgon Since: Dec, 2015
#165: Feb 22nd 2022 at 3:33:13 PM

Just for the record I don’t think they actually are going to make the existence of the Devil canonical, I was just mentioning that the animated series had things in it which were by design not the kind of stuff that would be present in series or movies. I mean, in the episode is very clear that Megas-Tu is a magical being. Is outright said that in the episode, that he uses magic and that the use of magic and witchcraft is possible in that region of space. Of course that works on the context of the animated show, in the same way that the Kzinti work despite obviously being impossible that the Larry Niven’s Known Space and Star be in the same universe. The thing about the original animated series is that you could see the writters were having fun without the limitations of canon.

On the other hand it also raises the question, if evil AI are so common what the fuck is the Zhat Vash doing all that time looking for a colony of them if the Federation has its own storage facility full of A.I.s (and is impossible they not knowing it as one of their members was infiltrated up to be head of Starfleet’s intelligence).

TheRoguePenguin Since: Jul, 2009
#166: Feb 22nd 2022 at 6:31:50 PM

Starfleet controls those AI, the androids are independent.

TVGuy Since: Dec, 2016
#167: Feb 23rd 2022 at 2:48:54 AM

With Discovery having magical interdimensional spore networks that resurrect people and Picard makings almost as many references as Lower Decks I must is a common trend on Star Trek now, and is almost inevitable. The franchise is too bloated, they were going to ran out of sci-fi ideas at some point and they have so many precedents that pandering to the fanbase is also important for strategic reasons. However I can see why people may have a problem with.

Is interisting how the use of fantasy beings and references was defended but no one defended Mariner lol. I personally agree that character can be annoying, is the same problem I had with Final Space.

I think is important to focus also not only in refute the negative criticism given but also to comment on the positive criticism that was also given.

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#168: Feb 23rd 2022 at 5:24:31 AM

I think Mariner is actually getting better as the show goes on, and she certainly gets called out a lot more than the standard Rick type.

Boimler becomes less of a doormat as the show goes on, and Tendi and Rutherford were never quite on the right wavelength for her to just steamroll over them. It is a problem that she's the amazing maverick type, but she's much less of an issue, IMO, than the others of that archetype. I think it helps a lot that the show is a lot more of an ensemble than anything. If it was the Mariner and Boimler Show (with a few other people making cameos sometimes), she'd be a lot more insufferable, but Tendi and Rutherford are just as much main characters as Mariner and Boimler. I will say though that Mariner is way less annoying than the lead in Final Space, most of his running jokes just don't work.

On a different note, something funny: for whatever reason Noell Wells (Tendi's actress) has a trend of voice acting green women, with Lord Dominator in Wander Over Yonder and a forest spirit in Elena of Avalor. To complete the trifecta, Tendi just needs a musical number at some point.

Edited by Zendervai on Feb 23rd 2022 at 8:25:18 AM

OmegaRadiance Since: Jun, 2011
#169: Feb 23rd 2022 at 5:30:19 AM

I find it easier to accept knowing that she takes after her mom, which the show leans into as it goes on.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
HeyMikey Since: Jul, 2015
#170: Feb 23rd 2022 at 8:24:49 AM

I find Mariner becomes a lot more tolerable after Crisis Point, when a lot of her anti-social behavior is given context and continues on into Season 2, once her headstrong, aggressive, and improvisational style is countered by Boimler's more measured and planned approach starting to actually be a worthy counterbalance to her.

In Season 2, having Boimler come into his own allowed him to be the problem solver in different ways than Mariner as introduced in Kayshon: His Eyes Open and continued on from there. Meanwhile, Mariner was forced to eat crow several times during the season, as her hotheaded style tended to be dangerous, unnecessary, inefficient when knowledge, planning, and patience were available. Kayshon: His Eyes Open, We'll Always Have Tom Paris, Mugato, Gumato, The Spy Humongous, Where Pleasant Fountains Lie, and I, Excretus, that's half the season where Mariner didn't solve and in certain cases exacerbated the plot she was in.

Edited by HeyMikey on Feb 23rd 2022 at 8:25:13 AM

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#171: Feb 23rd 2022 at 8:48:47 AM

There was also the time Tendi called her out for forcing her into playing a racist caricature of Orions. Mariner didn't really get hit with a direct consequence from that, but she was clearly framed as being in the wrong.

Oh, and in the second season finale, Mariner didn't really...do much mavericking at all. She doesn't solve the problem, she and Captain Freeman try to do a dumb maverick plan and get pulled out of it by Tendi and Rutherford solving the problem and Mariner mostly just does her job in the episode. Hell, she tries to risk her life to get to that control panel at one point and gets smacked down with Boimler taking over the job.

The show seems to be settling into like, Mariner is sometimes right when the problem is excessive Federation bureaucracy and rules slowing everything down, but she has a deeply unhealthy way of interacting with people, is really bad at letting other people take over, and would make for a really bad commanding officer under most circumstances unless she decides to grow up.

And I feel like season 3 is going to be setting up for Mariner to be forced into a position where she has to shape up and cut it out with the excessive mavericking.

Edited by Zendervai on Feb 23rd 2022 at 11:56:14 AM

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#172: Feb 24th 2022 at 3:29:12 PM

This big problem with Season 1 Mariner was that she was simultaneously an asshole and infallible (like Rick). She's (like a lot of the characterizations) was especially bad in the first few episodes, but you could see the show slowly start to move away from the central "Boimler is the uptight loser who maverick who always fails because he doesn't listen to perfect maverick Mariner" gag that it at first played to the hilt.

Season 2 basically drops it almost entirely. Mariner is still the hotshot, but less of an asshole and more fallible - or at least, given more attention to why she's right in some situations and why she's wrong in others. Boimler is still the Chew Toy, but the season makes it more evident that his uptight nature makes him still a badass - just a different kind than everyone else. And, as said, Tendi and Rutherford are much more clearly main characters, further balancing the two out.

Pachylad (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#173: Apr 30th 2022 at 7:31:14 AM

On First-Episode Spoiler, I noticed that Indubitably Left wrote the following before 'hiding' (?) the ST:LD example:

Note: As season 2 has not aired and it's unknown how important their familial relation would be, do not uncomment the Star Trek: Lower Decks example out yet.

So now that it's out, does it count as an example? (Haven't caught up with the series since the a couple of eps from the first)

HeyMikey Since: Jul, 2015
#174: Apr 30th 2022 at 8:19:53 AM

If we're talking about Mariner and Freeman's relationship now being common knowledge to the crew, it didn't really change the overall dynamics of the show. Other than the season one finale where everyone was trying to kiss Mariner's ass for favors and Mariner coming up with the plot to get transferred to the Sacramento, followed by the Season 2 premiere where Mariner was given a lot more leeway to break protocol to perform her side projects before going back to the status quo, nothing really changed.

I think I even knew a few fans who didn't realize the whole Freeman/Mariner relationship was supposed to be a secret as it just felt like standard overbearing parent, rebellious child hijinks, so knowing about it wasn't particularly spoiler-y to a lot of people in either the first season or the second. After those 2 episodes, her relationship didn't cause any changes to the ship's function in a way that would be spoiling the first episode if it was known about earlier.

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#175: Apr 30th 2022 at 5:08:42 PM

They mostly just hang out a few times after that.


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