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Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#676: Mar 15th 2022 at 5:55:00 AM

Wrong thread.

Edited by Ultimatum on Mar 15th 2022 at 12:57:46 PM

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Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#677: Mar 15th 2022 at 5:55:38 AM

[up][up] The thing that just completely breaks Lady Tremaine in the live action version is Ella forgiving her right at the end. The animated version clearly has no regrets for her actions beyond realizing that she screwed herself out of royalty, the live action version can't bear even living in the same country as Ella.

Animated Lady Tremaine is just a monster, live action Lady Tremaine is a deeply hurt and broken person who's using that as an excuse to torture someone who did nothing wrong.

Ookamikun This is going to be so much fun. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
This is going to be so much fun.
#678: Mar 15th 2022 at 7:11:42 AM

I forgot Ever After, which is strange since I love it and is my de facto Cinderella live action. I think they made the stepmother weird in that she likes Cinderella (Daniella)... as a slave.

Edited by Ookamikun on Mar 15th 2022 at 10:12:14 PM

Kiobi20 Since: Sep, 2016
#679: Mar 15th 2022 at 4:11:54 PM

[up][up] I don't get the live-action remakes feel the need to make complete evil villains into less interesting and less cool villains with sympathetic qualities.

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#680: Mar 15th 2022 at 5:10:44 PM

Because Disney really hates making unsympathetic villains these days.

The legend has returned.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#681: Mar 15th 2022 at 5:12:23 PM

Its not what they hate,it's what marketing has told them appeals to a general audience

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Ookamikun This is going to be so much fun. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
This is going to be so much fun.
#682: Mar 15th 2022 at 5:29:12 PM

Which is strange, since even to this day Jafar and Maleficent are more marketable than that guy from Big Hero Six.

AegisP Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Kindhearted SSSSSNAKE Man
#683: Mar 15th 2022 at 5:40:16 PM

But none of Disney's Twist villains ARE sympathetic ANYWAY!

Edited by AegisP on Mar 15th 2022 at 5:40:50 AM

As long as this flower is in my heart. My Strength will flow without end.
delayedboom she/her Since: Sep, 2021 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
she/her
#684: Mar 15th 2022 at 5:57:38 PM

[up] Well, there is Te Kā from Moana, that's technically a twist villain in the "this guy was actually a good guy" thing rather than the reverse.

Anyways, saw the film, definitely agree with the comments saying it needs a slice of life series to expand on the rest of the family members and hopefully go more into their relationships. I'd put it in the higher end of Disney mid-tier with Hunchback and Enchanted, above Frozen and Big Hero 6, and below Tangled and Mulan.

We don't sweep with a broom, no~
Snicka Since: Jun, 2011
#685: Mar 16th 2022 at 3:26:06 AM

Te Kā is more or less the inverse of a twist villain - character built up to be the Big Bad is revealed to be Good All Along. Encanto does the same, though to a lesser extent, with Bruno.

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#686: Mar 16th 2022 at 5:50:46 AM

I do think the "make them more sympathetic" thing worked better for Lady Tremaine, but yeah, most of the other remakes really overdo it.

The Cinderella remake very specifically had to do something with her. She's on screen for like...maybe 8 minutes in the animated version because the animated version spends an absurd amount of time with the mice, and the remake drops most of the mice stuff, meaning they needed to spend more time with the other characters and Lady Tremaine being a (more) complex but still horrible person with actual motivations and a history works for her.

It does not work for, say, Gaston, when the Beauty and the Beast remake was like "so, Gaston is like this because he was traumatized from war", which hits one hell of a sour note when you think about it.

[up] I'd say Te Ka and Bruno are in different, but related categories. Bruno was never evil and the movie never really directly condemns him, we just get "we don't talk about him" and "he's prone to making negative prophecies". Te Ka, on the other hand, is an actual threat and it takes restoring her heart to restore Te Fiti. You leave Bruno alone, nothing happens. You leave Te Ka alone, really bad things happen.

Edited by Zendervai on Mar 16th 2022 at 8:52:54 AM

Weirdguy149 Former King from Lumiose City Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: I'd jump in front of a train for ya!
Former King
#687: Mar 16th 2022 at 7:09:40 AM

I'd say it also works for Shere Khan. He has a genuine reason to want Mowgli dead besides the sake of doing it: he got scarred in his past dealings with humans. It helps that he's even more villainous despite this.

The legend has returned.
Snicka Since: Jun, 2011
#688: Mar 16th 2022 at 8:09:24 AM

[up][up]With Bruno, it's mostly Camilo's verse that paints him as really villainous, "sees your dreams and feasts on your screams" sounds really horrifying.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#689: Mar 16th 2022 at 12:36:40 PM

The difference between Gothel and Alma is that Alma is meant to be a flawed but ultimately well-meaning person. She's made a great deal of mistakes, but not out of malice. She's a scared old woman who ultimately loves her family but a) overly projects on her kids, b) is thoroughly unprepared for the burden of leading a community that blossomed around her, and c) reacts badly to curve balls thrown her way.

Gothel, on the other hand, is the product of the logic chain:

  • "We're making a movie about Rapunzel so we gotta explain why she's in the tower. What would drive Gothel to seal a child in a tower for her entire life?"
  • "Because she's the worst? The absolute worst?"
  • "That checks out. Let's roll with that."

It would be incredibly difficult to write Gothel in a way that makes her a sympathetic, flawed individual given the elephant in the room that she has to seal a child in a tower for that kid's entire life. It'd be next to impossible to try and justify that without coming off as disingenuous. So Disney leaned in and had a lot of fun making her a complete shitheel instead.

EDIT: Though you could probably get a fantastic movie mash-up out of pitting Gothel and Maleficent against each other. Like, Rapunzel/Aurora being imprisoned in Gothel's tower to selfishly hoard and protect her magic hair is the only thing shielding her from Maleficent's spinning wheel curse. And by the end of the film, both Gothel and Maleficent must be thwarted for Rapunzel/Aurora to go free.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Mar 16th 2022 at 12:42:54 PM

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Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#690: Mar 16th 2022 at 12:52:48 PM

[up] The Tangled sequel show even went to the level of showing that Gothel's treatment of Rapunzel was better than how she treated her actual daughter, because Rapunzel had something Gothel needed attached to her, that meant she needed to be kept healthy. Her actual daughter was just an inept servant, from the way Gothel viewed her.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#691: Mar 16th 2022 at 1:14:01 PM

It would be incredibly difficult to write Gothel in a way that makes her a sympathetic, flawed individual given the elephant in the room that she has to seal a child in a tower for that kid's entire life. It'd be next to impossible to try and justify that without coming off as disingenuous. So Disney leaned in and had a lot of fun making her a complete shitheel instead.

I recall the witch in Into the Woods is treated as genuinely thinking she was protecting Rapunzel by locking her in a tower, though she freely admits to not being a good person and it results in Rapunzel losing her sanity from being imprisoned for so long. She’s “sympathetic” more because her ruthlessness happens to be suited for the play’s Black-and-Gray Morality.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#692: Mar 16th 2022 at 2:09:16 PM

I'm not positive (and I know the Witch is a pre-existing fairy tale character), but my impression is that Gothel is specifically based off of the version of the Witch in Into the Woods, but without the original's good intentions.

So, I'd say she's sort of like a Corrupted Character Copy but with the pretty unusual distinction that she's the Corrupted Character Copy of a sympathetic villain.

good-morning Lord Something, Forgetter of Cool Titles from Brazil Since: Nov, 2021
Lord Something, Forgetter of Cool Titles
#693: Mar 17th 2022 at 8:05:02 AM

Just a minor note, but I liked how they used Camilo's power at the sequence when Casita was falling — turning into a child to dodge falling debris, then turning into a tall adult to quickly jump over obstacles and try to reach the roof. It's just a creative use of Shapeshifting I've never really thought much about, since every shapeshifter is technically a Sizeshifter by default too, even if they can only turn into other humans.

Edited by good-morning on Mar 17th 2022 at 12:05:19 PM

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Kiobi20 Since: Sep, 2016
#694: Mar 17th 2022 at 4:25:18 PM

is there any official confirmation that he can only turn into other humans?

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#695: Mar 17th 2022 at 4:37:11 PM

Camilo’s power is interesting because Abuela directed the family to use their powers to help the village people. But shapeshifting into just other people is ironically limited in that regard, as all Camilo can do to help is make himself taller for construction or entertain people. He doesn’t appear to become stronger in guises or else he’d just turn into a second Luisa. Does he feel a bigger need to prove his worth from what little he can do?

good-morning Lord Something, Forgetter of Cool Titles from Brazil Since: Nov, 2021
Lord Something, Forgetter of Cool Titles
#696: Mar 17th 2022 at 5:35:06 PM

[up]Yes, shapeshifting gets niche in an isolated town where most people probably know each other to a degree and there's probably no much reason to infiltrate anything; the most useful things we see him doing is entertaining people, assuming shapes to help in constructions, decorations and the such and turning into people to take care of their babies so the parents can rest.
[up][up] In the movie proper he only turns into humans, but if I'm not mistaken there are some storyboards from earlier versions of the movie showing him turning into other things, like a capybara.

Edited by good-morning on Mar 17th 2022 at 9:36:48 AM

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RhymeBeat True colors from Eastern Standard Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
True colors
#697: Mar 17th 2022 at 6:39:25 PM

Even in the final movie, he's able to turn into the rats on Bruno's rat? Could just be for effect though.

The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.
DoubleOG (Apprentice)
#698: Mar 17th 2022 at 6:46:21 PM

That was most likey effects and not his actual powers at work.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#699: Mar 17th 2022 at 7:00:19 PM

Maybe Antonio was helping him out offscreen by asking the rats to dance.

HeyMikey Since: Jul, 2015
#700: Mar 17th 2022 at 7:27:48 PM

Don't think turning into Luisa would have granted him super strength, since that's a property of the gifts, not her own down-to-Earth physical abilities. If it were to work in that fashion, changing into Delores would give him super-hearing.

I would think that his transformations would still give him the physical capabilities of a different person, if by nothing else just simple mechanics, otherwise, why change into anything to perform physical actions other than size constraints? If he's as strong or as fast in whatever he is as he is in his base form, it seems it would be best to just choose between very tall or very short whenever he needs to do anything depending on circumstances.

Edited by HeyMikey on Mar 17th 2022 at 7:28:17 AM


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