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2020 Civil Unrest, Protests, Demonstrations, et al.

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CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#2251: Jun 13th 2020 at 5:51:14 PM

I'm a die-hard anti-communist.

I just point out American capitalism is looter unregulated capitalism and a beast that is nonfunctional and self-destructive.

Normally, like Warren, I support capitalism. It's just like a dog. When treated well and with proper safety, its a loyal companion. When abused and starved, it becomes an evil beastie.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#2252: Jun 13th 2020 at 5:53:47 PM

Capitalism is very tied to Americans policing, police forces raise a lot of their own funds via either fines or civil forfeiture, US citizens (especially African Americans) are put in jail so as to secure profits for the private companies that run a number of the jails, slavery is a legal punishment for crimes so that prisoners can be used to generate lots of capital via prison labour, criminals in the US are very often motivated by a need for money due to the lack of a social safety net, ect...

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
nombretomado (Season 1) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#2253: Jun 13th 2020 at 5:57:39 PM

In both Palmdale, Ca. and Victorville, Ca., a black man has been found hanging from a tree.

Given the current events, both being called suicides/no foul play by authorities is being treated with heavy skepticism.

TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#2254: Jun 13th 2020 at 5:58:43 PM

There's also the black perspective in general. Most African-Americans view capitalism as inherently linked to their own oppression, as capitalism was fueled on the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade. Thus, blacks tend to have more 'revolutionary' politics than whites in America.

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was a democratic socialist and very ardent in his beliefs that the capitalist system was inherently oppressive to blacks in America, as were the institutions built around it. Other heroes of the black movement, Malcolm X and Huey P. Newton, had strong anti-capitalist views.

Of course, this is a perspective best suited to the US Politics or general politics threads, but it's been remarked by many outsiders that what we'd consider liberal politics in the US would be considered centrist or right-wing elsewhere.

There's also the debate still raging over whether or not social democracy can be considered the most moderate form of socialism there is, or the most radical form of social liberalism there is.

Edited by TheWildWestPyro on Jun 13th 2020 at 6:00:37 AM

FinestArts Vampire Mouse of Mars from The North Lands Since: Apr, 2020 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Vampire Mouse of Mars
#2255: Jun 13th 2020 at 5:58:51 PM

I'm fairly neutral on all of those systems and would not oppose their implementation...except for the whole socio economic collapse, mass starvation, poverty, etc. Vietnam gets brought up a lot due to their excellent handling of Covid-19, but that seems like a completely different set of of situations more about their relationship with China and them not having the resources for dealing with a full blown pandemic leading to them taking things more seriously that and not knowing entirely on their economic or political situation besides them apparently being Socialist or communist or something.

Edit: Replying to Charles Phipps by the way, and yeah I'd heard MLK was Democratic socialist as were a number of other black civil rights members. And yeah I was thinking about posting there, but saw the article which reminded me of those questions so I posted it here. Might move the discussion to those since it's a legit curio or mine.

Edited by FinestArts on Jun 13th 2020 at 9:02:42 AM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#2256: Jun 13th 2020 at 6:01:47 PM

The countries you're praising also tend to have much heavier government intervention and some degree of non-capitalist principles in place. So it's very odd to point at them and act like the solution is still capitalism.

FinestArts Vampire Mouse of Mars from The North Lands Since: Apr, 2020 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Vampire Mouse of Mars
#2257: Jun 13th 2020 at 6:08:31 PM

[up]

Oh I know and that's what I mean. Why not just have more government regulation and intervention in a number of these things along with the non-capitalist principles? The people I see advocating for doing away with capitalism aren't talking do away with the problem parts or some kind of reform, but the entire destruction and dismantling of the entire system as a whole in its entirety. My general regard is that these countries STILL have capitalism as part of their economies and politics, but have systems in place to reign in its worst impulses and problems. Why not do that?

TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#2258: Jun 13th 2020 at 6:12:09 PM

Building onto my other points; due to its association with colonialism, many African independence leaders - Nkrumah of Ghana, Nyerere of Tanzania, Senghor of Senegal - favored African socialism and were highly skeptical of capitalism. Communism was not really popular because it required the destruction of tradition to begin with (something the Soviets enjoyed), and the African continent is extremely spiritual.

Conveniently, many such leaders overthrown in CIA-funded military coups were replaced by pro-Western generals who were fine with letting capitalism have free reign once again, even if the country was wracked by internal government infighting and more coups.

With the kinship many African-American leaders felt to these independence leaders, they drew closer to socialism as a result.

Edited by TheWildWestPyro on Jun 13th 2020 at 6:12:53 AM

FinestArts Vampire Mouse of Mars from The North Lands Since: Apr, 2020 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Vampire Mouse of Mars
#2259: Jun 13th 2020 at 6:30:01 PM

That I can 100% understand.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#2260: Jun 13th 2020 at 6:31:28 PM

Is that why Arab socialism like Ba'athism is so strong in parts of the Middle East? The Quran has many references to practices and alms-giving that might come off as socialist, and many Arab socialist movements are also nationalistic, so I figure the Arab socialist movements see a point of traditional ethnic pride to draw from.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#2261: Jun 13th 2020 at 6:36:49 PM

Saddam was pretty secular though and, if I remember correctly, Gaddafi also wasn't an overly devout muslim.

I think it has more to do with Panarabism than anything religious.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#2262: Jun 13th 2020 at 6:40:07 PM

[up][up]

Yes. Note that Arab socialism tends to be iffy in how it's practiced. While Nasser was an Arab leader who definitely stuck to the socialist end of things as much as possible, Saddam's regime became less socialist over time and more nationalist.

Baathism requires Arab nationalism and socialism to work. In practice, Saddam considered the Stalinist model of communism to be his ideal form of socialism, and his regime was more driven by Iraqi nationalism than anything, just taken in a very revolutionary direction. Saddam's regime was pretty secular, but it was good to rally the people around Islam to stop the clerics from getting too suspicious.

Iraq only had to pay lip service to socialist ideals; mainly by addressing other Baathists as 'comrade', and watching as the Soviets heard that magic word came running with arms deals and raw material trade. Just like the US when they heard 'elections.'

Edited by TheWildWestPyro on Jun 13th 2020 at 6:41:27 AM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#2263: Jun 13th 2020 at 6:40:40 PM

For a lot of Arabs it seems like Islam is more a culture than dogma, like people who were Raised Catholic or cultural Jews.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#2264: Jun 13th 2020 at 6:41:20 PM

It should be noted that American communism died not in the 1950s with the Second Red Scare but in the 1930s with the Great Betrayal (somewhat hyperbolic name but that's communists for you). Basically, the communist party in the United States was making good traction with the African American community on the basis of supporting equal rights for all races, women, and the working class. It didn't move beyond the major cities but it was thriving in several places.

It, unfortunately, really was a foreign-based organization as its leadership took its marching orders and funding from the still-young Soviet Union. This lead to the organization initially favoring isolationism and the anti-war movement. This was reached its heyday in 1939 when they misread the room regarding the Molotov-Ribbetrop Pact.

Then in June, 1941, they were told to immediately become PRO-WAR (can't imagine why) and changed their rhetoric completely. They also contacted many anti-communists and stated that they would be willing to dial down the racial equality issue if politicians would support intervention in Europe on behalf of the Soviet Union. This got out as you might imagine and immediately caused mass resignations and defections from black membership. It proved unnecessary by Pearl Harbor but the damage was done and America was already now talking about how the Soviets were our friends while they were disgraced back home.

[The loss of Black Americans wasn't the only reason that the communist party failed in American. They were thoroughly anti-New Deal because the Soviets misread the situation and believed that letting capitalism fail was more important than reforming it. This obviously didn't go over with many working men and women.]

By the time the crackdown on Reds had happened, the organization had already lost 2/3rds of its membership and any real stake in American politics. Herbert Hoover would be disgusted to discover it was actually his agents paying in that caused the official organization to avoid bankruptcy one year.

Rural Americans never had any real communist movement due to the fact that what few charities and socialist movements existed tended to be motivated by religious fervor. They still are in a lot of places. As such, the communist attacks on the church as the tools of the rich didn't really go over the way they did in other countries where they worked hand in hand with the Establishment.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jun 13th 2020 at 6:46:09 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#2265: Jun 13th 2020 at 6:47:28 PM

I remember a recurring element in the works and biographies of writers for the Harlem Renaissance was early involvement with Communist groups in the hopes of gaining civil rights, then exploitation for the production of Soviet propaganda and atrocity denialism, eventually leading to severe disillusionment and turning their backs on communism altogether, with some turning completely conservative, some becoming more moderate or moving to alternative leftist movements, and others abandoning talk of economic politics altogether.

Ominae Since: Jul, 2010
#2266: Jun 13th 2020 at 6:52:03 PM

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/podcast/episode-53-japan-needs-black-lives-matter/#.XuWB4OdS9PY

Japan Times has a podcast (going to listen to it later) regarding the pro-BLM marches in Japan and why Japan needs to know more about it.

luisedgarf from Mexico Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
#2267: Jun 13th 2020 at 6:56:50 PM

Regarding Columbus...

That doesn't mean we should look at monsters like Columbus and think that the man needs statues of him.

Columbus is quite a controversial figure in Spanish-speaking Latin America, but I cannot blame that English-speaking countries like the U.S. wants to eliminate anything related about him, considering he was:

  • Both a historical figure completely alien from the Anglo-Saxon culture, since he was an Italian working for Spaniards, and...
  • The only reason there where statues of him in the States was just for very petty political reasons regarding race, in order to win the sympathy of Italian-Americans.

TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#2268: Jun 13th 2020 at 6:57:38 PM

One of the things that I learned as a kid that stuck with me later was that while back then the opinion was still positive outside of the US, Columbus was still arrested and chained up and brought back to Spain for trial, on many charges of being too cruel in governing his own conquered territory.

Edited by TheWildWestPyro on Jun 13th 2020 at 6:57:52 AM

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#2269: Jun 13th 2020 at 7:07:21 PM

[up] Yeah, when even the people who oversaw the expulsion of all non-Christians from Spain by any means necessary think you're a dick, that says something.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Jun 13th 2020 at 4:07:40 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#2270: Jun 13th 2020 at 7:08:37 PM

The pair of monarchs who, along with Torquemada, may have founded modern racism as we know it.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
luisedgarf from Mexico Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
#2271: Jun 13th 2020 at 7:11:37 PM

Columbus has lots of detractors here in Mexico, to be completely fair, for obvious reasons; I cannot say about the rest of the world, especially Spain and Italy.

But if there is one historical character who is invariably more hated than Columbus, it is Hernan Cortes, the conqueror of Mexico.

How hated is he, to give you guys an idea? To date, the whereabouts of Cortes' remains are considered a state secret here in Mexico, and while there is a tomb, it is completely empty. The only thing that is known about the Cortes remains is that they are in the possession of the National Institute of Anthropology and History (INAH in Spanish) and that is all that is known about the topic.

FinestArts Vampire Mouse of Mars from The North Lands Since: Apr, 2020 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Vampire Mouse of Mars
#2272: Jun 13th 2020 at 7:11:55 PM

This here post from the NY Times that I found on Era about abolishing the police is what led to my questions and I do think it's relevant to the discussion.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.html

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#2273: Jun 13th 2020 at 7:13:05 PM

[up][up] Yeah, Columbus really feels minor when compared to Pizarro and Cortez

Watch me destroying my country
TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#2274: Jun 13th 2020 at 7:13:39 PM

Yeah, it's a very frenzied national debate right now. There's abolishing the military, of course, like Costa Rica did (although my retired Latin American professor is leaning towards the notion that the National Police is basically the replacement for that). But abolishing the police entirely would lead to questions of what you do to replace it, even if mental health crises and the like can be easily left to specialized and better-prepared teams.

luisedgarf: A lot of the pride and romanticization of the Aztecs came after the fires of Mexican nationalism rose, and Mexican intellectuals and artists realized that a thriving power in the Americas had been wholly destroyed by the Spanish colonizers. It should be noted that there were only a hundred or so actual conquistadors; most of the work was done by the really, really pissed off and angry tribes who wanted to destroy their Aztec overlords by any means necessary; allying themselves with the well-equipped foreigners being that means to an end.

Edited by TheWildWestPyro on Jun 13th 2020 at 7:17:31 AM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#2275: Jun 13th 2020 at 7:20:04 PM

[up][up][up] Once again: and, what do you do in the interim? The positive effects of social programs take time, and there is still a need for some organisation to respond to crimes committed; traffic violations might seem minor but traffic laws exist for safety reasons.


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