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2020 Civil Unrest, Protests, Demonstrations, et al.

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eagleoftheninth Shop all day, greed is free from a dreamed portrait, imperfect Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Shop all day, greed is free
#2226: Jun 13th 2020 at 1:30:41 PM

They're not really about the past. They're about using it to make a statement about the present.

One day, we will read his name in the news and cheer.
raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#2227: Jun 13th 2020 at 1:33:27 PM

Personal monuments are meant to celebrate both a person and his/her deeds to either the country they come or to the world at large.

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#2228: Jun 13th 2020 at 1:37:07 PM

The reason we make statues of people is very simple: to let everyone know that these people were hot shit.

It's literally putting them on pedestals.

Edited by M84 on Jun 13th 2020 at 4:37:33 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#2229: Jun 13th 2020 at 1:39:10 PM

Washington's burning of Native villages during one of the more peaceful periods of American-Colonial relations, war crimes during the French [including starting the French and Indian War], and other activities notably made him a an almost universally agreed upon Jerkass prior to his mythologizing.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#2230: Jun 13th 2020 at 1:40:45 PM

When exactly was "prior to his mythologization"? The guy was the Founder of our country and when he was running for election he received almost unanimous support. I highly doubt this belief was anywhere close to universal.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Jun 13th 2020 at 1:41:00 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#2231: Jun 13th 2020 at 1:43:35 PM

I mean, literally, before the American Revolution. George Washington was just an incredibly rich asshole that bought his way into military service and was widely considered to be an incredible asshole who started fights with the French as well as Natives for no reason. A guy who also engaged in what at the time were considered war crimes.

He was just too rich to prosecute so the British backed him up. Notably, he was also considered an incompetant as he was captured and only let go when he signed documents that said, "Yes, I am guilty of unprovoked attacks and murder of French citizens."

[History teacher here]

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jun 13th 2020 at 1:44:19 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#2232: Jun 13th 2020 at 2:23:58 PM

Reassessing it and with the new knowledge gained, in that case, yes, Mount Rushmore's statues could be removed given the sheer significance of the Black Hills in Lakota culture. I do like the statue's design (I like giant heads) but I can now understand just why people want it gone.

There is the possibility that Rushmore could be reassessed in a fashion that doesn't lead to removal as well, but we'll see how the people decide.

Edited by TheWildWestPyro on Jun 13th 2020 at 2:24:54 AM

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#2233: Jun 13th 2020 at 2:32:59 PM

What I've heard of the alternative is to build high-profile Lakota monuments and museums in its proximity so the people don't get overshadowed.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#2234: Jun 13th 2020 at 2:33:14 PM

I'm not in favor, I think we should focus on the fights which are actually realistically winnable and don't make us sounds like crazy Iconoclasts.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#2235: Jun 13th 2020 at 3:00:13 PM

I don’t know, I think you could, at the very least, elevate Native voices on the issue, that could help build support for it. Mind you, I don’t know how well it would work...

Oh God! Natural light!
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#2236: Jun 13th 2020 at 3:01:56 PM

How easy would it even be to remove giant rock sculptures in a mountain without basically destroying it?

eagleoftheninth Shop all day, greed is free from a dreamed portrait, imperfect Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Shop all day, greed is free
#2237: Jun 13th 2020 at 3:04:26 PM

Some epoxy and sandpaper should do the trick. (Disclaimer: Am not actually a sculptor or rock expert)

One day, we will read his name in the news and cheer.
shadowblack Since: Jun, 2010
#2238: Jun 13th 2020 at 3:26:21 PM

I hate to interrupt, but... your entire country is built on land that originally belonged to the natives and was taken from them. Why the focus on that one location (Mount Rushmore)? Is it the only place where something was built on land that was sacred for some people?

More importantly, what does any of this have to do with the protests/unrest/demonstrations/whatever? I mean, that's what the thread is supposed to be about, is it not? That's a serious question, by the way.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#2239: Jun 13th 2020 at 3:47:22 PM

Why the focus on that one location (Mount Rushmore)? Is it the only place where something was built on land that was sacred for some people?

I dunno, if someone bulldozed the Vatican and built a monument to Stalin then you might be pissed as a Catholic. It's not the only sacred site but it is the BIG sacred site like Ayers Rock.

There is the possibility that Rushmore could be reassessed in a fashion that doesn't lead to removal as well, but we'll see how the people decide.

There's Stone Mountain. I'd love to put a big statue of Lincoln there. :)

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jun 13th 2020 at 3:50:26 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#2240: Jun 13th 2020 at 3:52:28 PM

I'd prefer General Sherman, because no one pisses off Confederates as much as Uncle Billy.evil grin

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#2241: Jun 13th 2020 at 3:55:03 PM

There's three on the current graffiti (how I refer to the Bas Relief).

Let's put Lincoln, Ulysses S. Grant, and Sherman on it.

:)

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
eagleoftheninth Shop all day, greed is free from a dreamed portrait, imperfect Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Shop all day, greed is free
#2242: Jun 13th 2020 at 3:56:35 PM

As for the statue question:

  1. The protests are about systemic racial violence in their respective societies (the US being the epicentre of the current wave).

  2. One of the ways that a society propagates racial violence is by celebrating people who did it in the past.

  3. Some of the people memorialised by these statues also did genuinely valuable things for their societies, or represent important moral values in their national mythology, which complicates the issue.

  4. Until recently, we rarely had marginalised communities who suffered from these things weigh in on mass media, so this is the first time that many people from the majority group get to hear their viewpoint.

  5. Ultimately, how you remember the past determines what values you want to carry into the future. Hence the statue debate.

One day, we will read his name in the news and cheer.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#2243: Jun 13th 2020 at 3:57:11 PM

[up]x5 Mount Rushmore is not the only such place, no, but it’s probably one of the more high profile ones, if not THE most high profile.

As for whether this on on-topic, not necessarily, though I do think it’s an adjacent issue, especially considering how many protests have led to monuments being removed, either through direct action or by influencing the local government.

[nja]

Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Jun 13th 2020 at 7:00:53 AM

Oh God! Natural light!
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#2244: Jun 13th 2020 at 4:02:30 PM

I figure we can work in step by steps.

Washington and Jefferson have been justifiably criticised as slave owners and people who protected the institution. Let's go after them AFTER we deal with the Confederate apologia who don't have any accomplishments BUT being racist assholes.

But that's my opinion as a privileged white dude.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#2245: Jun 13th 2020 at 4:54:15 PM

Mike Pondsmith (Cyberpunk 2020, Cyberpunk 2077) is a black game designer and gives an interesting perspective on the events from a man who has grown up in Texas. He argues that the situation isn't just the police being the police but that the police have specifically changed due to civil forfeiture, militarization, and changes in American politics.

https://rtalsoriangames.com/2020/06/12/mike-pondsmith-cops-and-racists/ Powerful stuff

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
FinestArts Vampire Mouse of Mars from The North Lands Since: Apr, 2020 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Vampire Mouse of Mars
#2246: Jun 13th 2020 at 5:34:07 PM

Article was incredibly good and it linked me to another by a former corrupt cop all of which led me to an usual question. Why do a lot these tend to specifically bring up capitalism? The white supremacy one I 100% get and maintaining the status quo by the rich and powerful also makes sense, but where does capitalism come into play since as far as I know, it hasn't had or cause these kind of problems elsewhere in Europe, Scandanavia, Canada all of which are capitalist and their solutions seem to just be higher taxes and better social welfare programs, but again are still largely capitalist societies as far as I know. I am well aware that all of these countries suffer some capacity of civil unrest and have problems, but not even close to the same realm as the US. It just seems to feel more like a distraction from the much simpler answer that the US as a whole is just an overtly violence hungry country and culture where the solutions are always more violence. It just feels less like capitalism is the problem and more our entire culture as a whole is the problem.

This also segues into my questions and thoughts about the recent uptick in far left about socialism/communism/lenninism all being the solutions along with their strings of failures being brought up by opponents and being written off as not really those systems or having the wrong jockey for the horse. Who exactly is right if either side even is?

Edited by FinestArts on Jun 13th 2020 at 8:39:46 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#2247: Jun 13th 2020 at 5:39:08 PM

Generally because the United States safety net is a lot more...net like (with holes) than the European one. The crime in America is predominately motivated by poverty with drugs, prostitution, and other vices motivated by the need to get through the next month of your life.

Which the police predominately deal with.

The very fact that healthcare in America is for profit means that vitals are thing that you need a lot of money for.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jun 13th 2020 at 5:39:22 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
PointMaid Since: Jun, 2014
#2248: Jun 13th 2020 at 5:42:13 PM

I'm convinced the US isn't one culture, it's a million regional, local, socioeconomic based subcultures which occasionally interact.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#2249: Jun 13th 2020 at 5:49:22 PM

[up]At least 54.

(Puerto Rico, DC, Guam, and American Samoa)

:)

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jun 13th 2020 at 5:49:42 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
FinestArts Vampire Mouse of Mars from The North Lands Since: Apr, 2020 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Vampire Mouse of Mars
#2250: Jun 13th 2020 at 5:49:40 PM

I can very much get that and there are a slew of things that should NOT have be for profit or have capitalism be a part of it(education, health, law enforcement, and prison to start). I just don't get the almost fetishistic idealization for tearing capitalism down and propping up socialism/communism/leninism when all the times they've been put up to bat it's ended in varying forms of disaster. I'm not opposed to them being put in place, but they'd need a proven track record and I'm just not seeing it while there are capitalist countries that work perfectly fine. Why not focus instead on emulating what made those countries work?


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