Shin Megami Tensei IV
Then it's not a tragedy, is naive people realizing the truth about well, why society has Police while taking the spotlight for movements that actually do have some actually wortht ideas
Edited by KazuyaProta on Jun 30th 2020 at 2:40:58 PM
Watch me destroying my country
They aren't driven by naivete, of course people are going to try to look for an alternative when the status quo is murderous. I ultimately disagree with their solution but it does them a disservice to reduce their grievances to mere navette.
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
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Yes, let's blame CHOP, instead of the fact that CHOP wouldn't even exist if the police would stop doing brutality and actually protect the community. Let's be perfectly honest here, everybody at this point knows that either it was white supremacists or police behind it. Nobody who has an actual clue is going to blame CHOP for something we know the far right is behind.
Edited by ScubaWolf on Jun 30th 2020 at 3:44:33 PM
"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
Shin Megami Tensei IV
If you solution is that Naive and simplistic as "No cops", you definitely deserve being called Naive
Who Am I?
They needed a solution for something like this happening, and it seems like they didn't have one.
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
She/Her Pronouns
Most Police Abolitionists usually envision empowering social workers and other such groups to take the duties that we would usually think need to be policed. CHOP has none of such organizations.
The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Queen of Good Things, Honest
"Nobody who already agrees with me will interpret these events differently from me" is tautological.
Like I said, it doesn't matter that it was probably white supremacists or police. If their proposed system doesn't have a solution for white supremacists or police wandering in and murdering people, then it is a flawed system.
It might not be your fault, in designing a village, that barbarians came in and murdered all your villagers. But not having a way to stop barbarians from coming in and murdering your villagers is a pretty significant design flaw nonetheless.
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Shin Megami Tensei IV
Especially when you started the village with the explicit intention to not have guards
Watch me destroying my country
Figure of Hourai
I have not once seen anyone say what CHOP or CHAZ stand for or why the hell people use one over another.
Edited by RainehDaze on Jun 30th 2020 at 8:56:18 PM
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Who Am I?
It used to be CHAZ and changed to CHOP: Capital Hill Organized Protest.
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
Yes, let's blame CHOP, instead of the fact that CHOP wouldn't even exist if the police would stop doing brutality and actually protect the community. Let's be perfectly honest here, everybody at this point knows that either it was white supremacists or police behind it. Nobody who has an actual clue is going to blame CHOP for something we know the far right is behind.
If your system can't stop murders from happening then it's not actually a good replacement for law enforcement. Their point isn't that CHOP is collectively responsible for those deaths, it's that these murders show why we need police.
Just police who have extensively reformed.
Most Police Abolitionists usually envision empowering social workers and other such groups to take the duties that we would usually think need to be policed. CHOP has none of such organizations.
This too, it's not even a good experiment for police abolition.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Jun 30th 2020 at 12:59:12 PM
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
This might help:
How CHAZ became CHOP: Seattle's police-free zone explained
Edited by sgamer82 on Jun 30th 2020 at 1:58:58 PM
At least two of the shootings are currently thought to be gang-related. Among the remaining four, white supremacy seems to be involved in two.
That’s without even getting into the other issues like theft and sexual assault.
The events in CHOP are a good argument against police abolition, but I really haven’t seen all that many people arguing for total police abolition as a matter of policy.
Edited by archonspeaks on Jun 30th 2020 at 1:08:20 AM
They should have sent a poet.
The vast majority of the protestors are arguing for police reform rather than abolition.
Reform is what we should get. Colorado's Police Reform Bill
is a good way, if not a good start.
Use of force: Chokeholds and carotid control holds will be banned. Carotid control holds are maneuvers in which officers bend their arms around a person’s neck and apply pressure on either side of the windpipe, which can lead to unconsciousness. The policy would require officers to only use force if absolutely necessary and deadly force can’t be used against someone for a minor or nonviolent offense. Officers can only use deadly force against someone fleeing from police if they pose an immediate risk to the officer or others, which advocates say is already case law.
Failure to intervene: An officer who fails to try to stop another from using excessive force could face a class 1 misdemeanor or greater charge. Officers will be protected from retaliation if they intervene.
Fired cops: Officers who plead guilty to or are convicted of an inappropriate use of force, failure to intervene to stop excessive force or found civilly liable for excessive force or failure to intervene will lose their Peace Officer Standards and Training board certification permanently. Beginning Jan. 1, 2022, the POST board will create and maintain a public database of officers who have been decertified, fired, found to be untruthful or repeatedly failed to follow training requirements.
Qualified immunity: The bill removes the qualified immunity defense, allowing people to bring civil rights claims in Colorado court. People who allege civil rights violations will be able to sue officers in their individual capacities. Officers determined not to have acted in good faith or with a reasonable belief that what they did was legal can be held personally liable for 5% of a judgment or settlement or $25,000, whichever is less.
Police prosecutions: The state attorney general has the authority to prosecute persistently bad departments and officers.
Protester protections: Officers will be prohibited from shooting rubber bullets indiscriminately into a crowd as well as targeting rubber bullet shots at someone’s head, torso or back. It also prevents officers from using tear gas before announcing it and giving time to for people to disperse.
Data tracking: Law enforcement agencies will have to send the state data on their use of force resulting in serious injury or death as well as stops, unannounced entries and use of firearms. Some demographic information will also be required. Agencies who don’t provide the information could put their funding in jeopardy.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
We were talking about that one group that did
Edited by KazuyaProta on Jun 30th 2020 at 3:17:49 AM
Watch me destroying my country
CHOP is not representative of the whole of protestors. The people that look at CHOP and change their minds on the protestors likely already were right wing bootlickers anyway. Atleast I hope.
Edited by Wispy on Jun 30th 2020 at 1:25:25 AM
A lot of the police could be taken on by social workers and mental health officials. The problem is that apparently some people believe there aren't people who are actively evil that aren't in positions of authority.
As Paul Verhoven said, "Being oppressed doesn't make you a better person. It just means you're oppressed."
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
A procrastination in of itself
X4 It’s worth noting that the Colorado reforms were done with the active support of the state’s police unions, [insert stoner cop joke here].
I hope that the Colorado forces can be used by other areas to help change their own forces, have new recruits be trained in a more cooperative environment and then use them as a base for either reforming existing forces or building new ones from scratch.
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
This basically, from what I'm getting CHOP seemed to assume Rousseau Was Right to a foolhardy level without understanding that you can't magic your way into a fully safe society without some degree of specialization to take care of trouble cases. The police as we know it may suck deeply, and it can perhaps be said that they are so bad that we are somehow less unsafe without them, sure, but it doesn't make the belief in the opposite direction that a complete absence of law enforcement (including the aforementioned social workers and the like) results in a society that is safe, true either.
And that hurts the movement. The CHOP is trying to have a different conversation than the one we need to be having. The conversation that everyone else has been having is that the police are violent and dangerous, and something needs to be done about that.
But the conversation the CHOP was having is that we don't actually need a system of policing at all. And those six murders are a resounding statement of "Apparently we f*cking DO!" Whether it's protesters murdering outsiders or white supremacists murdering protesters or crime of passion murders or whatever doesn't matter. What matters is that murders are happening during the No Police trial period, and nobody has the ability to do anything about it.
[...]
Like I said, it doesn't matter that it was probably white supremacists or police. If their proposed system doesn't have a solution for white supremacists or police wandering in and murdering people, then it is a flawed system.
It might not be your fault, in designing a village, that barbarians came in and murdered all your villagers. But not having a way to stop barbarians from coming in and murdering your villagers is a pretty significant design flaw nonetheless.
This too. You're always going to need a specialized force of people who can employ physical force to maintain ordernote , what we need is to ensure that they're fully accountable to the people they serve to prevent abuse of the authority that society collectively invested in them.
Edited by AlleyOop on Jun 30th 2020 at 5:22:35 AM
Who Am I?
@Scuba: that actually is a pretty good reform package.
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
Down with the Privileged🪓
Hey, you know that Milwaukee child sex trafficking ring that activists discovered?
Police have arrested... One of the men that helped rescue the girls.
Of course they would, retaliation. A classic corrupt cop move.
Queen of Good Things, Honest
The concern in that regard is that it could be strawmanned as a conversation-ender for people who were on the fence.
"The protesters got to have what they wantedHey! and look at how badly that worked out. Therefore, the protesters were wrong. End of controversy." The failure of the CHOP hurts our credibility, because it looks to people not already invested one way or the other as a test of the protesters' ideology.
Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 30th 2020 at 4:35:57 AM
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The tragedy of the CHOP is that it doesn't matter who was committing violence against whom. Even if all six shootings were white supremacists slipping in to murder some BLM protesters, it still looks bad for the CHOP. The CHOP was an experiment to prove that society can function just fine without police, and a bunch of murders that can't be investigated is a pretty compelling argument that what they built here is badly flawed - regardless of who is committing the murders.
And that hurts the movement. The CHOP is trying to have a different conversation than the one we need to be having. The conversation that everyone else has been having is that the police are violent and dangerous, and something needs to be done about that.
But the conversation the CHOP was having is that we don't actually need a system of policing at all. And those six murders are a resounding statement of "Apparently we f*cking DO!" Whether it's protesters murdering outsiders or white supremacists murdering protesters or crime of passion murders or whatever doesn't matter. What matters is that murders are happening during the No Police trial period, and nobody has the ability to do anything about it.
Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 30th 2020 at 1:19:29 PM
My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.