Needs Help: Deadpan Snarker

So, Deadpan Snarker has gone through a lot of Trope Decay over the years. It is often used for anytime sarcasm/snark occurs in a work even if it's not something that's associated with the character.

Collaborative Wick check from Sandbox.Dead Pan Snarker Wick Check:

Now since Deadpan Snarker has 28k wicks, renaming it is obviously off the table (and I don't think the name is the problem here) but I do think something needs to be done.

Edited by MacronNotes on May 14th 2020 at 11:44:18 AM

Sorry for the wait, ~MacronNotes. Opening.

I'm thinking a cleanup project may be necessary.

I think the most obvious cleanup for the "using it to pothole one-off instances of sarcasm" is to use Sarcasm Mode instead, but I'm not entirely sure Sarcasm Mode is supposed to be used outside of the forums. It's not a real trope, I know that, but are we allowed to use it in this way?

I argue that sarcasm mode is a real trope. The definition is using something to indicate sarcasm (primarily in text). Like the irony mark (⸮) in older works, how comics and written work would use italics or Bold Inflation or using inflection in spoken word or certain phrases. Not sure why we never collected in universe examples.

Its not just sarcasm even if its how most use it. Techinically, potholing sarcasm mode to sarcasm is a meta example but its not really useful to use it as a pothole magnet outside the forums as that is sinkholing.

Edited by MacronNotes on Jun 7th 2020 at 7:53:35 AM

If sarcasm mode is not a trope, then create a different trope for one off sarcasm.

But "character says a sarcastic line" isn't a trope.

One off sarcasm can be cut. Its not a trope so theres nothing to replace it with

I think the trope needs no actual changes, just a doubling-down on "this must be a recurring thing, not a one-off instance".

I also try to indicate sarcasm in quotes by writing "(sarcastically)" before relevant statements.

I am fairly sure that Sarcasm is actually a trope in the sense of a way for a teller to convey information, but I am not 100% sure. It certainly is not the same thing as Sarcasm Mode though, which is a trope about text markers indicating sarcasm.

I didn't think the Deadpan Snarker needed major changes but I was told to take it to TRS instead of making a projects thread so thats what I did.

Sarcasm is definitely convention . It could work as definition only page about the different ways its used but still shouldnt be used to replace sinkholes from Deadpan Snarker.

Edited by MacronNotes on Jun 8th 2020 at 11:15:05 AM

- I agree on Sarcasm being a trope.

I think the issue here might be Missing Supertrope combined with Pothole Magnet. Everyone and their mother wants to use a pothole to designate a line as being sarcastic, but as there's no Sarcasm trope, they just use Deadpan Snarker instead.

Another thing: I guess the Deadpan part of deadpan snarker doesnt mean any thing now? So its just character who snarks a lot right?

That's what we're trying to fix.

It was decided years ago that yes, the deadpan part of Deadpan Snarker was an artifact, but at that point it wasn't worth the effort to change. It's even more now.

The primary issue here is potholes and "one bit of snark labeled Deadpan Snarker." It's also the easiest to fix.

Oh makes sense.

I think sarcasm can be potholed to the suggested Sarcasm trope. But if we make it, would it have on page examples or should it be definition only? It would still run the risk of tropers instead using it the way Sarcasm Mode is sinkholed now. People might use it when they make sarcastic remarks.

I support the idea of a cleanup project focusing on keeping sarcasm a consistent character trait. I don't believe a one-off sarcastic line is a trope.

Edited by Synchronicity on Jun 8th 2020 at 9:42:19 AM

- I do believe that sarcastic phrasing is a trope, because it's of note, it's something usually contextual, narratively important, that's usually Implied by context, instead of stated aloud.

Otherwise, it involves Painting the Medium with italics.

Strongly disagree. Maybe there's a case for it if it's to point out something, but if it's just a line of sarcasm with no further context, not even how it relates to the situation? Cut away.

Wait, are talking about how to clean this trope, or how the Sarcasm trope should work?

In any case, I think saying something while clearly meaning the opposite is a trope.

Yeah I think those should be cut. They don't need to link anything.

If we do decide on having a Sarcasm page as like a definition only page or something like that it still shouldnt be sinkholed. I am not sure if its useful to have it include examples.

Also since Sarcasm Mode relates to the conversation, I think that only include in universe Painting the Medium examples but should probably make a thread for that.

Edited by MacronNotes on Jun 8th 2020 at 11:22:24 AM

I agree that the "deadpan" part of the trope is less important and should probably go if it weren't for the fact that it's not cause enough for renaming (see below).

There is a character type who is a true deadpan snarker - they make a lot of snarky comments but show no particular emotion when doing so. I've always seen Daria of Daria as the typical example. But it's quite unusual, and I think insisting on the "deadpan" part would leave us with too few examples. The important part is the snarkiness.

The reason I don't think we have cause for a renaming is that it's not the "deadpan" part of the trope name that causes the misuse; renaming it to just "Snarker" would not stop people from adding every single example of a person who snarks only once or twice.

Edited by GnomeTitan on Jun 8th 2020 at 6:08:31 PM

I'm not sold on the whole "Sarcasm is a trope" idea. I can see some potentially tropeworthy ideas with it, such as it being used to make the work funnier, but I'm not entirely certain what about it everyone else here seems to find so meaningful.

I guess as a way of conveying information it might qualify as a trope in that sense, but it'd be the sort of trope that wouldn't make sense potholing to, because unless you're trying to convey that the snark is a consistent character trait (Deadpan Snarker and other character tropes) or bring attention to the fact that a line is sarcastic (Sarcasm Mode) why would you need to point out that a work has a sarcastic line in it? Most if not all of them do- it'd be borderline omnipresent and it's not like we'd have a sister trope for sincere lines to match Sincerity Mode...so I'm just not sure I understand where this conversation is headed.

As for the "Deadpan" part, yeah, that never really bothered me much and I'm not sure it's worth the trouble of changing the name. It is what it is at this point but I do think more emphasis should be placed on the "character is habitually sarcastic to the point where it's a noteworthy character trait of theirs", and we shouldn't worry so much about exactly how those sarcastic lines are delivered.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jun 8th 2020 at 12:25:14 PM

I could see a trope for sarcasm (or repurposing Sarcasm Mode for that purpose), but it would need to be an example-less definition page, like Conflict and other Omnipresent Tropes.

Perhaps move correct examples to Recurring Snarker? Probably not worth the effort, but whatever works.