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Unclear Description: Ambiguously Brown

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Deadlock Clock: Jun 30th 2020 at 11:59:00 PM
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#1: May 5th 2020 at 8:17:48 PM

Spun off to TRS from this Trope Talk thread

Ambiguously Brown has a bit of an identity problem. On first glance, it's simple. A character is of a different ethnicity than the rest of the cast, but that ethnicity is ambigous.

However there's... alot of problems with that description. First of all, most characters in fiction usually don't have their ethnic origins deeply explored if it's not plot relevant. In a Police Procedural in New York where a bit character is dark skinned, is it an example if the show doesn't tell me their ethnic origins because it's not relevant? Because that's the thing, the way the article is written, you can apply the trope to anyone whos background is "They are some sort of minority" and "The show doesn't tell me where they are from".

A lot of the examples thus veer into weirdly problematic angles. Some read like pure Audience Reaction. Others are just weird, like talking about characters who are explicitly non-humans as Ambiguously Brown (For example, Gaia in Captain Planet and the Planeteers).

MCU: Criminals & Terrorists – New York has a bit character singled out as Ambiguously Brown, but like, they are a bit part, and the show is set in New York. Is that really an example?

Then there's the overlap with Mukokuseki (Anime's lack of ethnic features in its art styles) and Plays Great Ethnics (When an RL actor is cast in roles with a wide range of distinct ethnicities).

The question becomes: When does Ambiguously Brown become "Ambiguous" and not just "This person is brown and it's not elaborated on." Is merely being a different color with no background correct? Is the expectation that there should be an explanation or background necessary? What makes for that expectation of an explanation? On the thread there's been discussion about limiting it to when the ambiguity is commented upon In-Universe. Others about making this into an Audience Reaction trope, or completely rebuilding the trope listing scenarios where the Ambiguity makes sense (For example, where a character's stated ethnicity and their appearance clashes).

The awesome Synchronicity did an excellent wick check trying to break down examples by types of (mis)use here

Results:

  • A character is browner than everyone else and this is not explained (correct definition per SPRT): 10/71
  • Character is dark, but the example does not clarify this darkness in relation to everyone else: 9/71
  • Character is brown but their background is known from the start, there are hints about their background, or their background is later made clear within the work: 15/71
  • Character's ethnicity is ambiguous, but it is eventually clarified by the creators.: 5/71
  • Character is brown but the setting is not Earth or is not comparable to Earth: 4/71
  • Misuse and ZCE: 28/71

Edited by Ghilz on May 5th 2020 at 11:22:10 AM

Berrenta Bejeweled (she/her) (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Bejeweled (she/her)
#2: May 5th 2020 at 8:59:58 PM

Since it was discussed elsewhere, and there's a solid wick check, opened.

Not sure what course of action to take.

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#3: May 5th 2020 at 9:22:48 PM

Okay, genuinely didn't expect this to be opened so fast!

I think we have to first decide on what the actual definition of the trope is, and if we're sticking to it. As stated in the OP, the description is just a tad unclear, so for the wick check I went with what's on Square Peg, Round Trope: A character is brown in a cast of not-brown-skinned people and their ethnicity is ambiguous and unexplained, remaining unclear within the context of the work.

If we consider this the actual definition as I did then this trope is very badly misused. Not a lot of usages meet all three criteria — it needs a good cleanup at the minimum, and solutions for characters who don't quite fit these criteria. Like, if a character is just 'brown' for a long time and are eventually clarified to be from so-and-so, are they still an example? What if, they're, say, half-Chinese and half-white, but no one can tell that they are even if they are pale-skinned?

There's also a bunch of zero-context examples, which is not unexpected as this is an old trope that has to do with appearances.

The Trope Talk thread proposed a bunch of potential fixes:

  • An Ambiguous Ethnicity trope for characters whose ethnic ambiguity is lampshaded or at least acknowledged within the work (eg. Rashida Jones in Parks and Recreation, whose 'ambiguous ethnic blend perfectly represents the American melting pot' or something like that). It is not stated in the OP but quite a few examples are of this sort, and an old TLP draft that goes this way.
  • A Viewer Ethnicity Confusion YMMV item for audience confusion about a character's background.
  • Removing settings that are clearly not comparable to Earth or don't view race and ethnicity the same way we do. (eg. Oscar Isaac in Star Wars — can we assume that his character is Latino when they are all in space?)
  • Limiting this to drawn media, since in live-action you can probably at least fall back on the setting/plot or assume Actor-Shared Background.

Edited by Synchronicity on May 5th 2020 at 11:23:45 AM

Adept (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#4: May 5th 2020 at 9:25:20 PM

To be honest, I don't find any of those usages particularly tropeworthy, and despite the (vaguely) different definitions, most of them simply boil down to "this character is dark-skinned/isn't white", which is People Sit on Chairs.

ETA:[up]Note that we do have Undisclosed Native, Non-Specifically Foreign, and Cultural Blending that seems to cover the first definition. There's also Plays Great Ethnics for when an actor plays characters of a different ethnicity than their own, which seems to make the second suggestion pointless.

Edited by Adept on May 6th 2020 at 12:53:42 AM

GastonRabbit C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
C'est la vie. (he/him)
#5: May 5th 2020 at 9:47:33 PM

[up]

Edit: The above post's addition wasn't there when I originally posted this, but I agree with it as well.

Edited by GastonRabbit on May 6th 2020 at 3:58:45 AM

I got a rock for Halloween.
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#6: May 5th 2020 at 9:54:32 PM

I personally don't see the need for an Audience Reaction page. To me it seems likely to become full of really weird and questionable, bordering on offensive entries.

My preference would be to limit it to trope where a character's ethnicity is confusing or ambiguous in universe and it's remarked upon in the work itself. And even then I think Mistaken Nationality covers most of those examples already. Maybe someone can make a case that there's enough example and enough of a trope that's not covered by Mistaken Nationality.

Also holy shit I just realized the page has a Real Life section. YIKES.

Edited by Ghilz on May 5th 2020 at 12:57:44 PM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#7: May 5th 2020 at 9:57:06 PM

[up] Specifically, the Audience Reaction idea would be for something like "Audience Ethnicity Confusion", where the audience expresses...well, confusion over what race or ethnicity a character is intended to be. It'd literally just be us recording the confusion of the fanbase, so I'm not sure how it could be any more problematic than Viewer Gender Confusion.

I don't care if we make the Audience Reaction trope or not; it's just that you seem to be misunderstanding how it'd actually work if we did.

Edited by WarJay77 on May 5th 2020 at 12:57:41 PM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#8: May 5th 2020 at 10:01:19 PM

[up] I've not gone through the examples of Viewer Gender Confusion so I can't be sure if they are problematic or not. But even if is fine. I think "Character is androgynous" or "Character looks like a different gender" is less prone to misuse because Gender markers are more well established culturally.

But I also don't see the value of the Audience Reaction. Like, is it gonna catch natter that would go in the main page? Or is just gonna become a repository for people who think all Asians/Middle Eastern/(Insert Phenotype Here) look the same to them to talk about it? Do we want to risk it? Or to people who then take offense at that assessment "Oh he clearly looks like an X and whoever posted that is just being a racist".

Edited by Ghilz on May 5th 2020 at 1:04:56 PM

Adept (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#9: May 5th 2020 at 10:04:15 PM

[up][up]I personally don't see a need for Viewer Ethnic Confusion because ethnicity is a lot more malleable than sex (due to the prevalence of Mixed Ancestry and But Not Too Foreign), and therefore less notable. I'm also pretty sure the genetic difference between two people of a different ethnic group is far less than the genetic variation between a male and a female.

[up]We do have Interchangeable Asian Cultures and All Asians Look Alike for the phenomenon you're referring to.

Personally, I don't mind just outright cutting this trope. Or, if we need to preserve inbounds, turn it into a disambig page for related tropes, such as But Not Too Black, Mixed Ancestry, etc.

Edited by Adept on May 6th 2020 at 1:09:42 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (3,795/50,000)
#10: May 5th 2020 at 10:09:01 PM

The way I imagined it working would be something like, "Oh, fans always draw this character as a different ethnicity" or "fans have discussed how they aren't sure what race a character is meant to be" or "the character has a different ethnicity depending on the fanfic". Thass' it- it'd just be us collecting data on fanbases that express confusion or debate over what race/ethnicity a character is. It wouldn't be a trope where someone could just come along and say "this character isn't white and I don't know what they're supposed to be".

That said, I really don't care if this happens or not- but really, the idea isn't at all as problematic as you're thinking it'd be.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#11: May 5th 2020 at 10:09:20 PM

Also the other issue with an audience reaction trope, is that you still end up with multiple types.

Characters whose ethnicity is not clearly established.

And Characters whose ethnicity is clearly established, but Audience members might not be aware / knowledgeable enough to pick on.

Just saying don't think most people have a handle on every ethnicity on earth and can immediately, for example, call a Tatar from a Turk.

[up]We do have Interchangeable Asian Cultures and All Asians Look Alike for the phenomenon you're referring to.

Yes, and both are tropes, not Audience Reactions. They are about specific storytelling constructs. First one is about writers using any Asian culture as shorthands for one another with no distinguishing between them. the other is about characters unable to tell Asians appart, as a shorthand for showing their racism/bigotry/etc...

Edited by Ghilz on May 5th 2020 at 1:14:01 PM

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#12: May 5th 2020 at 10:23:29 PM

Just to nudge this back to Ambiguously Brown. We don't have to make Viewer Ethnicity Confusion, it was just thrown out as an idea to solve the existing problems with Ambiguously Brown, because a lot of examples are speculative. Just tossing out the speculation is also a valid idea.

Non-Specifically Foreign and Undisclosed Native don't actually cover the Ambiguous Ethnicity examples I'm thinking of, though, because those characters are Americans who live in America, like the Parks and Rec example or this from Crazy Ex-Girlfriend:

  • Heather is biracial (with a white mom and a black dad), but she's seen as this in-universe, if Kevin trying to eke her ethnicity out of her in "Oh, Nathaniel, It's On!" is any indication. He guesses she's of Indian descent.

[down]He assumes she is Indian-American. He knows she is a brown-American, he's just guessing what kind of brown.

Edited by Synchronicity on May 6th 2020 at 11:36:53 AM

Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#13: May 5th 2020 at 10:31:02 PM

If we're making a trope where it's remarked in Universe, the questions become the following

  1. Do we have enough examples that are remaked upon in universe.
  2. How many of these don't fit under an existing trope already: Mistaken Nationality, Undisclosed Native, Non-Specifically Foreign or any of the 17 Cultural Blending subtropes.
  3. Can we make a definition that covers the left over and doesn't overlap with the existing tropes.

IMHO the best course of action is to cute the page go through the examples, remove anything that isn't remaked in universe, move everything that fits into a subtrope to that subtrope. MAYBE keep the stragglers who don't fit a specific subtrope so someone can try to TLP a trope if they feel so inclined.

Or if there's a specific format we can think of enough examples of, TLP that right away. I just don't have one.

[up] It sounds like Mistaken Nationality. She's American, he assumes she's not?

Edited by Ghilz on May 5th 2020 at 1:39:33 PM

GastonRabbit C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
C'est la vie. (he/him)
#14: May 6th 2020 at 1:54:21 AM

[up]Regarding point number 2, I'm defaulting to thinking retooling this into something acknowledged in-universe would be redundant with those tropes, unless someone can show that there are already examples that are acknowledged in-universe, and that said examples are sufficiently distinct from those tropes.

Edited by GastonRabbit on May 6th 2020 at 3:54:31 AM

I got a rock for Halloween.
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#15: May 6th 2020 at 9:41:41 AM

Arguing for the existence of an Ambiguous Ethnicity Lampshade Whatever trope: I don't see what tropes like Cultural Blending have to do with comments like ""You look exotic, was your dad a GI?", where it's the characters ethnic ambiguity (and the asking character's ignorance), not the fact that they are foreign (because they are not), that is used for humor. To me, that's distinct from being ignorant of a nationality (nationality =/= ethnicity).

Consider also these two situations from the quotes page:

Joyce: I...I've been trying to determine if it's rude to ask what, um, flavor of human you two are.
Walky: Well, my sister is black, but I'm generically beige.

"It's too bad you had to die...before we found out what ethnicity you were."
Chanel #5 on Chanel #2, Scream Queens (2015)

And this entry from Series.Angie Tribeca, which I remembered from the wick check:

Angie's mixed heritage (which mirrors that of Rashida Jones in real life) is obliquely referenced in an uncomfortable but hilarious gag when Atkins commits the faux pas of assuming Tanner will know his way around the "black market" because he is a cop with "years of experience on the streets". He's not sure about Tribeca's "experience on the streets", but he's definitely sure Geils has no "experience on the streets".
Tribeca: I have some. On my father's side.

And these from the Ambiguous Ethnicity TLP draft:

  • Lu Tze of the Literature/Discworld is a Badass Grandpa so "generically ethnic" he goes unnoticed anywhere, be it in the disc's equivalent of Shamgri-La, Omnia (Jerusalem), or Ankh-Morpork (London / New York).
  • In New Girl Cece is Ambiguously Brown, but says her parents are Indian in S 1 E 05 (though she's from Oregon) (Editing to add that the guys spend time guessing her ethnicity before she reveals this.). Schmidt still lists a few different countries when he asks her in S2 and explains his Christmas gift to her with "Cocoa, for your brown...-ness".

In these cases, wondering about "what shade of brown" the characters are is the joke, not where they are from. It's not a foreigner thing.

I'd imagine written media and the way they describe their characters would fall into this as well.


Anyway, I've another question. Here are two examples that I myself have added/edited in the past. The justification for adding wasn't that there were no hints, but rather the hints don't line up to any one origin. Should that also be counted under Ambiguously Brown?

  • Characters.Galavant: Isabella has a vaguely Spanish name (as does her kingdom, Valencia), is played by a Chinese-Indian-Jewish actress, has parents played by white actors, and has a cousin who rules a country that looks slightly like "Arabian Nights" Days. Lampshaded; she at one point refers to her ethnicity as "hard to pin down".
  • Anime.Tamako Market: The people that Dela works for. They have dark tan skin, their names are Choi and Mecha Mochimazzi ("Mochi" is unambiguously Japanese, "-mazzi" is vaguely Italian), they wear outfits whose colorful patterns are not especially emblematic of a particular culture, appear to live on a tropical island, and belong to a monarchy. "Choi" itself is a Chinese/Korean surname, and the food she prepares in episode nine looks Vietnamese. Given all this, "Southeast Asian" may be a good guess, but it's never made clear.

Edited by Synchronicity on May 6th 2020 at 12:01:07 PM

naturalironist from The Information Superhighway Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#16: May 6th 2020 at 10:12:25 AM

I would argue that having characters whose ethnicity is never specified and can be interpreted in multiple ways is in fact tropeworthy. In most works, the default is to have a White Male Lead, or whatever the dominant ethnicity in the country of origin. When characters deviate from this, their ethnicity is usually important. Having characters without a designated race signals a desire on the author's part both to avoid addressing racial issues, and to be inclusive so that any reader can see themselves in the character. It often also states a commitment to a post-racial ideal. This is no less true in science fiction settings, where Humans Are White is often the assumption and characters not having an ethnicity we have today can signal a post-racial future, consistent with but noteworthy for the genre.

This is similar to Mukokuseki, but that trope is specific to anime/manga art style, which is fairly unrealistic and tends to depict canon Asian characters with vaguely Caucasian features. Other examples with different art styles would be misusing the trope.

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#17: May 6th 2020 at 10:37:06 AM

[up]I dont disagree with your point, but the part where I struggle is how you define it without ending up with every non-white characters who don't have a specific ethnic background having this trope listed in their character page, or ending in a People Sit on Chairs situation where the trope boils down to "Non-whites exist". Coz while there's times like you listed where a character being non-white but not from a specific ethnicity is relevant, there's also times where a character not being white isn't relevant. And that's where the current trope struggles alot.

[up][up] Maybe there's a place for a trope where characters speculate about another character's ethnicity, but they aren't in error so Mistaken Nationality doesn't apply.

Edited by Ghilz on May 6th 2020 at 1:38:45 PM

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#18: May 6th 2020 at 11:01:32 AM

Isn't the "post-racial future" depicted in SF In the Future, Humans Will Be One Race? I'm not sure how else to fix Ambiguously Brown, but I definitely think this should be limited to settings that share Earth's concepts of race or at least have similar Earthlike settings, because it dilutes the meaning of a trope if everyone is some shade of brown.

[up]Do you think the Square Peg, Round Trope definition is sustainable with some scrubbing? This trope was, I think, intended for a token brown person in a sea of not-brown characters, and there are basically no other PO Cs (or not-Japanese) in the work that they stick out like a sore thumb. Western mainstream media was less diverse when this was conceptualized, and anime still largely remains that way. But now we rightly hold the writing, casting, and overall creation of fictional PO Cs to a higher standard (ie. it's perfectly fine to have a brown character whose ethnicity is not touched upon/brown characters should be written without their race being part of the equation).

Wow, is this hitting some Bi The Way thread vibes...

Edited by Synchronicity on May 6th 2020 at 1:06:51 PM

crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#19: May 6th 2020 at 11:47:39 AM

I was introduced to this trope through Lupin III, where two characters (sometimes) have skin that is noticeably darker than the rest of the cast. Their ethnicity is clearly stated, but why they're darker is not explained. Most of the cast is implicitly or explicitly Japanese (Lupin himself is half-Japanese), but two characters (who are both explicitly Japanese) have a range of skin tones, from the pale skin of extras and the rest of the cast to brown.


This sort of ...inversion?... of Mukokuseki seems intentional by the artists. I've been keeping track of the discussion because I'm interested, but while I have the opinion of "I would like this unusual artistic choice tracked across different works", I don't have a strong sense of "how this choice affects the work" or "how audiences react to this choice", so I'm mostly lurking.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Pfff133 Since: Mar, 2016
#20: May 6th 2020 at 12:48:06 PM

I too have no strong vision for what the trope should become, but I do believe it has merit and should be retooled rather than cut. At minimum, anything acknowledged in-universe should count, but I'm of the opinion it should also include cases where the writer is obviously investing in a character's roots (compared to the rest of the cast) without going in any particular direction and without making any statements.

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#21: May 6th 2020 at 12:57:40 PM

[up][up]Are they implied to be anything other than Japanese? Because just "explicitly Japanese but with a tan" or something strikes me as...not this trope, even with the current description. But it does remind me of this idea from the Latino Is Brown thread: an acknowledged aversion of Phenotype Stereotype. But determining author intent (ie. "I didn't want to portray my Japanese character with Raven Hair, Ivory Skin") is difficult outside of in-universe acknowledgements of someone-not-looking-like-X.

crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#22: May 6th 2020 at 1:37:33 PM

The paler members of the cast are implied to look like Western characters, but that's Mukokuseki. The generic extras and episodic characters are usually pale Japanese, but that's also Mukokuseki. The two characters are explicitly Japanese, to the point where one of them is dressed as an Edo-era samurai (in modern day) and the other one is supposed to be a descendant of an Edo-era fictional character.

The skin tone for the other three characters is consistent, to the point where when Lupin changes his face to look like Zenigata, his skin tone also changes colour, and it changes back to pale when he's no longer disguised. But in a different movie, they have the exact same skin tone.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#23: May 6th 2020 at 4:01:47 PM

[up][up][up] I'm all for a Retool. I just don't have a definition that doesn't end up being covered by other existing tropes

cases where the writer is obviously investing in a character's roots (compared to the rest of the cast) without going in any particular direction and without making any statements.

I don't even understand what that means. Like, if the author doesn't state a character's roots, and doesn't go in any direction with them, then how would it be "obvious they are invested in that character's roots more than the rest of the cast" ?

[up] Knowing nothing about the work, it seems like they'd not be an example. Their origins are known, and from the sound of it, their darker color isn't remarked upon or really impacts them in any way, it's just a visual design decision with no story bearing.

Edited by Ghilz on May 6th 2020 at 7:03:56 AM

Adept (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
#24: May 6th 2020 at 8:48:39 PM

@Synchronicity: So as I'm understanding you, Ambiguous Ethnicity is when the character's ethnicity is made into a big deal, but the exact ethnic group is not specified? Like Non-Specifically Foreign, but for ethnicity rather than country of origin?

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#25: May 7th 2020 at 6:44:13 AM

[up]The trope I'm imagining? Sorta, but it can be clarified. In the Angie Tribeca example, "streets" awkwardly means "black". The important thing is the character is seen as such in-universe and this is lampshaded, often for humor.


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