NaNo 4328 / 50,000
I stand by my own stance. If allitteration is based on sounds at the start of words, then words starting with S and words starting with SH are not different enough to be considered not aliterative, not when sounds that are much more clearly different would be considered aliterative. To separate SH as its own, separate thing on this basis seems arbitrary if we're going by the actual sounds over flat linguistics.
Edited by sgamer82 on Apr 16th 2020 at 3:09:35 AM
Alliteration is studied by poetics, so some theories of literary forms and other literature studies. However, if we define it on sound, as it usually is, then phonetics and linguistics can be very useful. Because these are sciences, so they are objective.
At this point, I can't say that I've read the whole thread. But I'll definitely read it tomorrow.
I certainly didn't expect this would be so heated and controversial. To me, it all seems rather easy to define and decide.
Like I said in my last post:
Oooh... Has anyone said that Creators who don't hit the right sounds with their Added Alliterative Appeal, are at least trying to use the trope?
Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576In my (embarrassingly formal) course on grammar and editing, we were taught that people make grammatical "mistakes" all the time without realizing it. People mispeak in reality and what they're trying to say doesn't always come out right.
Nobody's shaming you for how you pronounce words. That'd be so dumb. We're discussing a trope and how examples should fit into that trope.
That is what I am saying, yes. At least with Sam and Sham. They are both words that start with S sounds, so I see no reason they wouldn't be considered aliterative.
Shoe and Zoo I could see an argument for but wouldn't say so myself, as those are S and Z sounds. Mass and Mash I'm less sure on, because they do feel different at the end of a word vs the start of a word. They certainly wouldn't be rhymes, but they're still S sounds at the end of the day.
Edited by sgamer82 on Apr 16th 2020 at 3:23:42 AM
"Sham" and "Sam" are different, but not different enough for me to count them as different sounds entirely. They're about as different as "Scam" and "Strand", both of which apparently are alliteration according to this thread. And that's the problem; as far as I'm concerned, all of these are just variations of an "s" sound, and being told that they're not similar enough at all while "Sc" and "St" get a free pass is really nonsensical.
As for my dialect, I think I'm basically the standard US accent, the one you hear on TV and stuff.
Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper WallExactly, separating SH from the rest of the S sounds comes off as a Distinction Without a Difference.
It's just so wrong to say that words Sam and sham both start with the same /s/ sound. If you were an English teacher teaching English as foreign language, trying to pronounce those words with the same s, you would confuse your students so badly.
They only start with the same letter. Orthography. Writing system.
Sam and Sham are very similar words. In fact, they rhyme. Their beginning is not the same. The second sound in both is the same vowel. They also end the same with the sound /m/.
They differ precisely in one sound, one feature. It's the S and SH sound at the beginning.
In IPA, this is how you transcribe them:
- Sam /sæm/
- Sham /ʃæm/
Edited by XFllo on Apr 16th 2020 at 11:29:04 AM
I'm not saying they start with the same /s/ sound. I'm saying they start with an /s/ sound, same as all the other S words do, and in the case of the examples that started all this, one that's a lot closer to their companion words than any alternatives might be.
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Sincere question, how does that work? S/Sh sound similar while SK/ST don't... at all.
Edited by sgamer82 on Apr 16th 2020 at 3:28:17 AM
I'd say you could alliterate "Z" and "X" words, because they're essentially pronounced the same when they're at the start of a word (Zebra, Xylophone), but "Z" and "S" don't really sound enough alike to qualify as the same sound, not just because they aren't...well, the same letter.
Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wallx4
Sk-St can both have the S hissed, a good idea of what I mean by that is Snake Talk. The theoretical hiss would be applicable to both an S before a K, and an S before a T. It would not be applicable to an S before an H. Therefore, those sounds are more similar to one another than to Sh.
Edited by Florien on Apr 16th 2020 at 2:33:27 AM
Really? Because I also hear a hissing sound with "Sh".
Crown Description:
How do we define the pre-existing term "alliteration" for the purpose of cleaning and collecting examples of Added Alliterative Appeal? The following four options have been debated at length and it's time to settle the discussion on this pre-existing term.
