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Sh vs. S, Alliteration or Not?

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crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#76: Apr 16th 2020 at 2:04:17 PM

Linguistics is a science, so I'm sorry but you're wrong.
Excuse me, but alliteration is not scientifically proven. There is already evidence provided to you that people find things alliterative even when they're not phonemically alliterative. You cannot "prove" they do not find it alliterative.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#77: Apr 16th 2020 at 2:08:39 PM

I stand by my own stance. If allitteration is based on sounds at the start of words, then words starting with S and words starting with SH are not different enough to be considered not aliterative, not when sounds that are much more clearly different would be considered aliterative. To separate SH as its own, separate thing on this basis seems arbitrary if we're going by the actual sounds over flat linguistics.


[up] That's why I asked my earlier question of "is there something that specially says it's not alliteration", because so far all I'm really seeing is "it's science, so there!"

Edited by sgamer82 on Apr 16th 2020 at 3:09:35 AM

Florien The They who said it from statistically, slightly right behind you. Since: Aug, 2019
The They who said it
#78: Apr 16th 2020 at 2:09:14 PM

[up][up][up] I'm not shadowblack.

[down]Thank you!

Edited by Florien on Apr 16th 2020 at 2:14:03 AM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#79: Apr 16th 2020 at 2:10:13 PM

[up] Corrected. Sorry about that.

XFllo There is no Planet B from Planet A Since: Aug, 2012
There is no Planet B
#80: Apr 16th 2020 at 2:11:58 PM

Alliteration is studied by poetics, so some theories of literary forms and other literature studies. However, if we define it on sound, as it usually is, then phonetics and linguistics can be very useful. Because these are sciences, so they are objective.

At this point, I can't say that I've read the whole thread. But I'll definitely read it tomorrow.

I certainly didn't expect this would be so heated and controversial. To me, it all seems rather easy to define and decide.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#81: Apr 16th 2020 at 2:13:27 PM

The ironic thing is I agree.

shadowblack Since: Jun, 2010
#82: Apr 16th 2020 at 2:13:31 PM

Like I said in my last post:

it's a language (or some cases accent) issue and the best we can do is agree to disagree - because different people hear things differently.
The way I hear them 's' and 'sh' are different and distinct sounds. Other people, however, find them not different / not distinct enough. That's just the way things are - I doubt either side of the conversation will be able to convince the other.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#83: Apr 16th 2020 at 2:14:39 PM

Right, that's the problem in a nutshell.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Malady (X-Troper)
#84: Apr 16th 2020 at 2:16:06 PM

Oooh... Has anyone said that Creators who don't hit the right sounds with their Added Alliterative Appeal, are at least trying to use the trope?

Disambig Needed: Help with those issues! tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13324299140A37493800&page=24#comment-576
WaterBlap Blapper of Water Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Blapper of Water
#85: Apr 16th 2020 at 2:16:42 PM

Honestly? Because I don't like being told that the way I personally hear my own language is somehow "wrong".
Maybe "wrong" is the, ahem, wrong word. Everybody does it, and there's really nothing wrong with that, is there?

In my (embarrassingly formal) course on grammar and editing, we were taught that people make grammatical "mistakes" all the time without realizing it. People mispeak in reality and what they're trying to say doesn't always come out right.

Nobody's shaming you for how you pronounce words. That'd be so dumb. We're discussing a trope and how examples should fit into that trope.

But this debate wasn't started over what's linguistically agreed upon. It was a debate about whether or not the words sounded different. And only now is everyone bringing out the linguistic facts...
I can only speak for myself, but I was discussing linguistics because what other objective way is there to go about this issue? Also, the other method wasn't leading anywhere productive, just a bunch of people arguing about words like "action" and whatnot. This debate has yet to be productive, so maybe incorporating the study of sounds and language is necessary...?

To me, S and Sh aren't different enough to not be alliteration.
See, this just confuses me. I am not an expert on English dialects, so I have no idea what words in what dialect you're talking about. Words like "Shoe" and "Zoo" have different first phonemes. Words like "Sham" and "Sam" have different first phonemes. I am so confused, are you saying "Sham" and "Sam" have very similar first sounds? Or "Mass" and "Mash"? Are those very similar sounding last sounds?

Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty
XFllo There is no Planet B from Planet A Since: Aug, 2012
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#87: Apr 16th 2020 at 2:19:05 PM

See, this just confuses me. I am not an expert on English dialects, so I have no idea what words in what dialect you're talking about. Words like "Shoe" and "Zoo" have different first phonemes. Words like "Sham" and "Sam" have different first phonemes. I am so confused, are you saying "Sham" and "Sam" have very similar first sounds? Or "Mass" and "Mash"? Are those very similar sounding last sounds?

That is what I am saying, yes. At least with Sam and Sham. They are both words that start with S sounds, so I see no reason they wouldn't be considered aliterative.

Shoe and Zoo I could see an argument for but wouldn't say so myself, as those are S and Z sounds. Mass and Mash I'm less sure on, because they do feel different at the end of a word vs the start of a word. They certainly wouldn't be rhymes, but they're still S sounds at the end of the day.

Edited by sgamer82 on Apr 16th 2020 at 3:23:42 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#88: Apr 16th 2020 at 2:20:38 PM

"Sham" and "Sam" are different, but not different enough for me to count them as different sounds entirely. They're about as different as "Scam" and "Strand", both of which apparently are alliteration according to this thread. And that's the problem; as far as I'm concerned, all of these are just variations of an "s" sound, and being told that they're not similar enough at all while "Sc" and "St" get a free pass is really nonsensical.

As for my dialect, I think I'm basically the standard US accent, the one you hear on TV and stuff.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#89: Apr 16th 2020 at 2:21:26 PM

Exactly, separating SH from the rest of the S sounds comes off as a Distinction Without a Difference.

Florien The They who said it from statistically, slightly right behind you. Since: Aug, 2019
The They who said it
#90: Apr 16th 2020 at 2:23:51 PM

Thing is, to me, S-Sh has more difference than Sk-St do.

XFllo There is no Planet B from Planet A Since: Aug, 2012
There is no Planet B
#91: Apr 16th 2020 at 2:25:00 PM

It's just so wrong to say that words Sam and sham both start with the same /s/ sound. If you were an English teacher teaching English as foreign language, trying to pronounce those words with the same s, you would confuse your students so badly.

They only start with the same letter. Orthography. Writing system.

Sam and Sham are very similar words. In fact, they rhyme. Their beginning is not the same. The second sound in both is the same vowel. They also end the same with the sound /m/.

They differ precisely in one sound, one feature. It's the S and SH sound at the beginning.

In IPA, this is how you transcribe them:

  • Sam /sæm/
  • Sham /ʃæm/


Edited by XFllo on Apr 16th 2020 at 11:29:04 AM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#92: Apr 16th 2020 at 2:26:24 PM

I'm not saying they start with the same /s/ sound. I'm saying they start with an /s/ sound, same as all the other S words do, and in the case of the examples that started all this, one that's a lot closer to their companion words than any alternatives might be.

[up][up] Sincere question, how does that work? S/Sh sound similar while SK/ST don't... at all.

Edited by sgamer82 on Apr 16th 2020 at 3:28:17 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#93: Apr 16th 2020 at 2:27:22 PM
Albert3105 Since: Jun, 2013
#94: Apr 16th 2020 at 2:28:41 PM

[up][up] But /s/ =/= /ʃ/. Since /z/ is also an s-like sibilant sound, would you alliterate a word starting in /s/ with one starting in /z/?

Edited by Albert3105 on Apr 16th 2020 at 2:28:52 AM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#95: Apr 16th 2020 at 2:29:19 PM

Less sincere question, when did this go from linguistics to algebra?

Serious answer, probably not, because a Z sound is not an S sound.

Edited by sgamer82 on Apr 16th 2020 at 3:29:54 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#96: Apr 16th 2020 at 2:31:13 PM

I'd say you could alliterate "Z" and "X" words, because they're essentially pronounced the same when they're at the start of a word (Zebra, Xylophone), but "Z" and "S" don't really sound enough alike to qualify as the same sound, not just because they aren't...well, the same letter.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Florien The They who said it from statistically, slightly right behind you. Since: Aug, 2019
The They who said it
#97: Apr 16th 2020 at 2:32:13 PM

x4[up] Sk-St can both have the S hissed, a good idea of what I mean by that is Snake Talk. The theoretical hiss would be applicable to both an S before a K, and an S before a T. It would not be applicable to an S before an H. Therefore, those sounds are more similar to one another than to Sh.

Edited by Florien on Apr 16th 2020 at 2:33:27 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#98: Apr 16th 2020 at 2:32:56 PM

[up] Really? Because I also hear a hissing sound with "Sh".

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#99: Apr 16th 2020 at 2:32:59 PM

As has been noted a few times now, the specific letters aren't the issue, the sounds they make are.

[up] Ditto. In fact I'd associate it with SH well before SK or ST.

Edited by sgamer82 on Apr 16th 2020 at 3:34:09 AM

XFllo There is no Planet B from Planet A Since: Aug, 2012
There is no Planet B
#100: Apr 16th 2020 at 2:33:12 PM

Ok, I might wanna prepare crash course on English phonetics.

18th Apr '20 7:51:53 AM

Crown Description:

How do we define the pre-existing term "alliteration" for the purpose of cleaning and collecting examples of Added Alliterative Appeal? The following four options have been debated at length and it's time to settle the discussion on this pre-existing term.

Total posts: 336
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