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Sh vs. S, Alliteration or Not?

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crazysamaritan Could we just... not have Death anymore? from Lupin III
Could we just... not have Death anymore?
Apr 24th 2020 at 4:25:24 PM

Will this redefining require an LT/P cleanup?

No, but it will need a short-term cleanup. After the pages have been fixed once, reference can be made to proper pronunciation guides when adding/removing pages/examples on an individual basis. Consensus won't be needed because the consensus is coming from an outside source.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
WaterBlap Blapper of Water Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Blapper of Water
Apr 27th 2020 at 6:03:05 PM

Crowner update (not yet stable):

  • Repeated sounds, determined phonetically. +12 (20 to 8, 2.50:1)
  • Both repeated sounds and repeated letters. +2 (14 to 12, 1.17:1)
  • Repeated sounds, but not necessarily the exact sounds. -1 (11 to 12)
  • Repeated letters, not determined by sounds. -21 (Unanimously against.)

TLP Crash Rescue Tallies, where we make the wiki better.
Playing_with_boy An innocent bank bag......
An innocent bank bag......
Apr 28th 2020 at 12:33:29 PM

What I meant was sounds that, according to IPA, are the same, and sounds that the same in ceretain dialects.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=7rvl1iw148pv4sygy6br981b&page=4784#comment-119583
XFllo There is no Planet B from Planet A
There is no Planet B
Apr 30th 2020 at 12:52:02 AM

[up] I don't understand what you're trying to say or argue here.

If any phrase is alliterative at least in one dialect of English, it should be fair game to list here. But dialects and their differing pronunciation of certain words is not the issue here.

Florien Vote for the IPS in King for a day. from somewhere in Terrestria.
Vote for the IPS in King for a day.
Apr 30th 2020 at 1:13:27 PM

[up] Wouldn't that imply that the current third place option, repeated sounds but not exact sounds at time of this post, is the correct choice based on that due to dialectal variations? Or am I misinterpreting your statement?

Terrestria needs YOU, citizen. Vote for the IPS in the King for a day tournament. The IPS. "At least one of us agrees with you"
Playing_with_boy An innocent bank bag......
Apr 30th 2020 at 7:21:13 PM

Less the same and more close enough to the same that it's as alliterative as anything else.

You know how in "Eragon" everyone cries 'a single tear'? Yeah, just TRY that in "One Piece" and see if it works. - Formerly Narm Charm
May 2nd 2020 at 10:01:05 PM

The crowner seems to have settled on "Repeated sounds, determined phonetically." at a 2.4:1 support ratio.

Edited by Albert3105 on May 2nd 2020 at 10:04:57 AM

WarJay77 Silver Amador from Upstate New York Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Silver Amador
May 2nd 2020 at 10:02:42 PM

I can't say I'm thrilled by the results, but c'est la vie...at least this can be settled now.

3 stories in the works, more on my profile if you're curious - Tropes Needing TRS - Trope Idea Salvage Yard
Florien Vote for the IPS in King for a day. from somewhere in Terrestria.
Vote for the IPS in King for a day.
May 3rd 2020 at 12:58:04 AM

[up] Yep. Seems the plurality is for phonetic alliteration only on AAA.

Do we put a note at the top of the page to indicate that? What's the next step for enacting this policy?

Edited by Florien on May 3rd 2020 at 12:59:37 PM

Terrestria needs YOU, citizen. Vote for the IPS in the King for a day tournament. The IPS. "At least one of us agrees with you"
ArsThaumaturgis Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
May 3rd 2020 at 9:45:00 AM

Fair enough; the results didn't fall as I might have preferred, but so it goes!

(I do worry a little that the use of "and" in the second-highest entry might have suggested to some that it required both factors, not either, as I seem to recall was the intent. But I see little enough reason to pursue the matter; I mention it mainly to get it off of my mind.)

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on May 3rd 2020 at 7:13:01 PM

Night River: A Short, Simple, Spooky Experience. (Okaywithsomebadaudiosorry. T-T)
May 3rd 2020 at 2:17:40 PM

[up][up] Added Alliterative Appeal already has a large notice specifying phonetics-only.

Alliterative Name will need a massive examples purge because Sea Rover unilaterally changed the definition from phonetic to spelling-based in August 2018. I have now reverted his definition change.

The page quote will have to be changed too due to being based on spelling instead of phonetics.

The purge will be rather extensive especially due to having to purge a bunch of names that start with different vowel sounds.

    Trope names to purge from Alliterative Name, folder A 

    Accent Depundent trope names 

Edited by Albert3105 on May 3rd 2020 at 3:33:59 AM

WaterBlap Blapper of Water Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Blapper of Water
May 3rd 2020 at 4:11:12 PM

[up][up] Quick note. That entry says "both x and y" and then the examples hopefully help explain what is meant. It does not mean both x and y simultaneously, but rather that both x and y would count as alliteration. It is the option that means "nearly everything is alliteration even when the sounds or letters are distinctly different." I'm honestly surprised it's the second highest, to be honest, but I guess that was already discussed.

[up] The only change to the AAA quote would be to remove "voila" since that starts with a W sound. All the other V words make V sounds.

Edited by WaterBlap on May 3rd 2020 at 6:17:16 AM

TLP Crash Rescue Tallies, where we make the wiki better.
May 3rd 2020 at 4:29:04 PM

[up] I'm talking about the page quote for Alliterative Name ("I'm Penny Parker. You can remember that 'cause it's got the same letter at the front of each name. That's important theatrically, you know."), not Added Alliterative Appeal.

I've requested a crowner closure on the Locked Pages thread.

Edited by Albert3105 on May 3rd 2020 at 4:30:49 AM

WaterBlap Blapper of Water Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Blapper of Water
May 3rd 2020 at 4:45:07 PM

[up] I see what you mean. I at first thought you were talking about Penny Parker, but the quote specifies "it's got the same letter." I agree with removing the quote.

Also, should the clean-up stay with this thread or should we close this thread and start an alliteration-based clean-up thread? I expect most people would be put off by the [double checks] twelve pages of discussion we've had. Maybe a new thread with a simple summation (and a notice that we will not be debating what constitutes alliteration anymore).

I also wonder if it would be more efficient to tackle consonants first. Vowels are a bit more complicated and the discussion has focused on alliteration specifically. I don't think we necessarily have to start alphabetically (but I mean I'm not going to coordinate the effort so if others disagree then whatevs).

TLP Crash Rescue Tallies, where we make the wiki better.
WarJay77 Silver Amador from Upstate New York Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Silver Amador
May 3rd 2020 at 5:45:22 PM

I don't really have a huge preference if we keep it here or off thread. I'll do whatever others decide.

3 stories in the works, more on my profile if you're curious - Tropes Needing TRS - Trope Idea Salvage Yard
May 3rd 2020 at 6:45:15 PM

Consonant-initial purges for trope names at Alliterative Name:

    Trope names, C 

    Trope names, G 

    Trope names, P 

    Trope names, S 

    Trope names, T 

    Trope names, W 
This suffers from Accent Depundent issues due to the lack of the /ʍ/-/w/ merger in Scotireland. The affected names are:

The following three however can be purged regardless of accent.

Edited by Albert3105 on May 3rd 2020 at 6:45:34 AM

May 3rd 2020 at 6:48:27 PM

So, should we make a split for visual alliteration of things? Because that is a thing that writers do, even if we're having a trope for just phonetics...

Help with possible disambig and redirect issues!
May 3rd 2020 at 6:50:03 PM

[up] Sure bet. That's why I was collecting purge lists in the first place, so we can more easily fit them under a different spelling-based alliteration trope.

May 3rd 2020 at 7:22:43 PM

[up] It's a Broken Base, both soft and hard G pronunciations exist. (It etymologically had a soft G. The hard G pronunciation is IMO a hyperforeignism.)

Edited by Albert3105 on May 3rd 2020 at 7:27:59 AM

Florien Vote for the IPS in King for a day. from somewhere in Terrestria.
Vote for the IPS in King for a day.
May 3rd 2020 at 7:39:36 PM

[up][up] Not always, though it is pronounced with two hard Gs now, Genghis would have had something closer to a modern Ch sound at the front originally.

[up] Ninja'd. Forgot about actually sending this post for about twenty minutes.

Edited by Florien on May 3rd 2020 at 7:41:00 AM

Terrestria needs YOU, citizen. Vote for the IPS in the King for a day tournament. The IPS. "At least one of us agrees with you"
4tell0life4 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
May 3rd 2020 at 9:35:40 PM

That is a point of consideration too: when there are more than one ways of reading a word, how would the trope count it?

We can never truly eradicate the coronavirus, but we can suppress its threat like influenza
May 3rd 2020 at 10:08:05 PM

[up] A label note could clarify Accent Depundent examples?

Edited by Albert3105 on May 3rd 2020 at 10:08:27 AM

Dghcrh Perfect Stranger from Small country that looks like a fish Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Perfect Stranger
May 4th 2020 at 3:55:47 AM

Does this mean we should also clean up examples on the work pages on Alliterative Name and wicks that don't fit the alliteration definition?

Berserk Button: Calling Romanian a Slavic language

Page Action: Added Alliterative Appeal 2
18th Apr '20 7:51:53 AM
What would be the best way to fix the page?
At issue:
How do we define the pre-existing term \"alliteration\" for the purpose of cleaning and collecting examples of Added Alliterative Appeal? The following four options have been debated at length and it\'s time to settle the discussion on this pre-existing term.

Total posts: 331
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How well does it match the trope?

Example of:

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Media sources:

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