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M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#776: Nov 2nd 2021 at 9:03:39 AM

[up][up]Besides, they don't need the Voice to dominate a fight. Their Weirding Way is pretty much the most dangerous known martial art in the Imperium. It's a martial art that takes full advantage of the Bene Gesserit training that grants them mastery of their bodies right down to their very nerves. The likes of even the Sardaukar at their peak can only begin to approach them in hand-to-hand combat.

Edited by M84 on Nov 3rd 2021 at 12:06:42 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#777: Nov 2nd 2021 at 9:27:00 AM

The Bene Gesserit also have a quality that gives them trust and power over the other parts of the Empire: they are actually semi-selfless in their goals. At least in the context that they do not solely look after their own position but the Empire (or humanity) as a whole.

For millennia, the Sisterhood basically cleans up the shit of the other houses so the whole thing doesn't collapse. Others think of them as a Manipulative Bastard and true but it is also in the purpose of keeping humanity going.

It's just that the Bene Gesserit tend to think they'd do a better job than anyone else.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Nov 2nd 2021 at 9:28:44 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#778: Nov 2nd 2021 at 7:29:11 PM

The Bene Gesserit were at least self-aware of their limitations since they only saw about half of the big picture. The entire reason they bred a Kwisatz Haderach was because he would be able to see the whole thing.

They just suffered the Original Position Fallacy since it never occurred to them that whatever solution a Kwisatz Haderach might discover that they could not see would mean the loss of their own power base.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Lyendith Since: Mar, 2011
#779: Nov 2nd 2021 at 7:35:07 PM

I wonder what’s the deal with women, and specifically women, being unable to look at the… thing the KH can.

Edited by Lyendith on Nov 2nd 2021 at 3:42:16 PM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#780: Nov 2nd 2021 at 7:42:11 PM

The idea is that the Genetic Memory thing is linked to chromosomal makeup. Bene Gesserit only have X chromosomes, so they cannot read the full Genetic Memory of male ancestors. They can still read partial memories of male ancestors since men have an X chromosome. But only a Kwisatz Haderach with an XY chromosomal makeup can read all of it.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Lyendith Since: Mar, 2011
#781: Nov 2nd 2021 at 7:48:19 PM

Is there a reason the BG can’t simply recruit men, then?

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#782: Nov 2nd 2021 at 7:52:25 PM

[up]They tried that in the beginning. Unfortunately, the "Water of Life" (ie sandworm spit — no seriously) that women ingest to become Reverend Mothers would always kill any men who ingested it. It's not 100% safe for women either, but there was at least a chance of women surviving.

The whole point of the Kwisatz Haderach program was to breed a man who could ingest the Water of Life and survive.

Edited by M84 on Nov 2nd 2021 at 10:53:34 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#783: Nov 2nd 2021 at 8:00:48 PM

Some clarifications. There is no evidence that Herbert intended the "only female genetic memory" thing to be linked to X chromosomes. That's a fan interpretation. It's never stated explicitly why women can't look into male genetic memory, but Paul describes female and male as "giving and taking forces". The male takes; the female gives. Each is incapable of dwelling in the space of the other. (Call this sexist or whatever; it's the premise.) The Kwisatz Haderach sits astride both of these forces, giving and taking in equal measure.

Regarding the spice poison: It is not the only drug that can be used in the Bene Gesserit rituals, but once they have used it, none of the others work. The "Water of Life" is released by a drowned sandworm. It is part of the chemical process that produces the spice, but in a particularly dangerous form that is extraordinarily poisonous. When transformed by a Reverend Mother (or Kwisatz Haderach) it becomes a potent narcotic that magnifies awareness of genetic memory.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 2nd 2021 at 11:02:43 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lyendith Since: Mar, 2011
#784: Nov 2nd 2021 at 8:01:05 PM

[up][up] Oh, right, I think that was mentioned in the films… It’s like nature itself didn’t want it to happen, huh. tongue

Edited by Lyendith on Nov 2nd 2021 at 4:01:55 PM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#785: Nov 2nd 2021 at 8:03:21 PM

[up][up]I think the chromosome thing might have been something mentioned in the Prequel novels (which weren't written by Frank Herbert himself) — it's been a while since I read them so I can't be certain. But since the prequel novels are dubiously canon and not entirely consistent with the main series, I suppose the chromosome thing might as well be fan interpretation.

[up]Even the Bene Gesserit women are pushed to the limit when ingesting the poison — it takes every bit of their honed mastery over their own bodies' metabolic processes to survive and convert it. And even Paul as the Kwisatz Haderach nearly died after ingesting and converting a single drop of the Water of Life. Nature really doesn't want it to happen.

Edited by M84 on Nov 2nd 2021 at 11:14:25 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#786: Nov 2nd 2021 at 9:40:23 PM

Alright finally watched it, my mom came with me.

Pretty good stuff and she liked it too, even helped explain some of the stuff she was confused about.

Looking forward to part 2.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#787: Nov 3rd 2021 at 6:13:30 AM

Herbert would probably avoid a purely genetic explanation even if X+Y works genetically. He was a guy who wasn't shy about saying things were elemental to men and women mentally ala Robert Jordan (who was a massive-massive Dune fan).

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Nov 3rd 2021 at 6:13:48 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#788: Nov 3rd 2021 at 7:35:49 AM

So, there are no aliens in Dune, right? Intelligent ones, I mean.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#789: Nov 3rd 2021 at 7:39:19 AM

There definately are but they don't show up until much later

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#790: Nov 3rd 2021 at 7:40:51 AM

Nope, Absent Aliens is very much in effect. Plenty of alien life yes, but none of it is sapient.

Edited by M84 on Nov 3rd 2021 at 10:42:21 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#791: Nov 3rd 2021 at 7:42:38 AM

It depends on what is meant by "aliens". The main series contains no sapient creatures that are not either human or of human creation. As noted, there is life all over the place but none of it talks. A lot of it is also adapted Earth species.

Edited by Fighteer on Nov 3rd 2021 at 10:43:43 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#792: Nov 3rd 2021 at 7:47:42 AM

I'm thinking of the books I'm thinking of the Tleilaxu

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#793: Nov 3rd 2021 at 7:49:25 AM

Nope, even those are heavily heavily genetically altered humans.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#794: Nov 3rd 2021 at 7:52:27 AM

In fairness with a name like 'Tleilaxu' it does scream alien species,at least it did to me the first time I read it

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
slimcoder The Head of the Hydra Since: May, 2013
The Head of the Hydra
#795: Nov 3rd 2021 at 2:38:25 PM

And I just saw this.

WTF? Man that is some first edition CG.

Edited by slimcoder on Nov 3rd 2021 at 2:38:42 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#797: Nov 3rd 2021 at 2:47:23 PM

Heh,that probably ate up their budget fairly quickly,and this was in a time before CGI was a thing

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#798: Nov 3rd 2021 at 2:50:36 PM

Jesus wtf xD Looks like some badly edited fan video.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#799: Nov 3rd 2021 at 2:51:53 PM

Hey, this came out like a decade ago.

Not all CGI can age well

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ultimatum Disasturbator from The Wiggle Room (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#800: Nov 3rd 2021 at 2:52:17 PM

hey man it was the 80s dont be mean they're were trying their best

have a listen and have a link to my discord server

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