Denis Villeneuve's Dune

I got the book. The bookstore clerk said movie sales were doing great, so she fully expects a sequel (the book store is right across the cinema as well).

The book seems to have three parts, Dune, Muad'Dib, and The Prophet. Are those all part of the first book, or does that include the sequels? I have to say, wikipedia and our own work page are rather murky on what books, exactly, have been published.

It's all part of the first book. One of those books that divides the story into acts depending on what's happening.

In the main Dune series written by Frank Herbert, there are six books: Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune, God Emperor of Dune, Heretics of Dune, Chapterhouse: Dune. Herbert died while writing the sequel to Chapterhouse: Dune, which would presumably have explained what the hell was going on at the end.

His son, Brian Herbert, collaborated with Kevin J. Anderson to write several prequel books that were not as well received, largely because they were much pulpier and less coherent than the original novels and introduced a number of unnecessary retcons. These novels focused on individual characters in Dune to elaborate on their backstories. Think about Solo and you get the idea: lots of explanations for things that didn't really need them.

The original books can be broken up thematically into pairs, with Dune and Dune Messiah covering the rise (and fall) of Paul Atreides, Children of Dune and God Emperor of Dune covering the story of his son, Leto II, and Heretics of Dune and Chapterhouse: Dune covering the aftermath of Leto II's reign thousands of years later.

It's a little confusing because there are time skips of varying length between each of the books and in several cases we have to adjust to a completely new set of characters. If we think about the entirety of the story that Herbert wanted to tell, Dune is merely the introductory paragraph.

Edited by Fighteer on Oct 21st 2021 at 10:25:56 AM

The whole story is essentially Paul and his descendants forcing humanity to move beyond their current status and moving out to spread out across the stars.

Edited by theLibrarian on Oct 21st 2021 at 9:35:19 AM

Are they all doorstoppers like the first book too?

Dune Messiah is the shortest of the books, acting as something of a coda or epilogue to the first one. The others are pretty hefty as I recall, although I don't have the exact page counts to mind. I remember giving up on God Emperor of Dune at one point and then forcing myself to read it on a plane flight. Once I got over that hump, the final two books were relatively easy to get through.

The thing about those later books (mainly from God Emperor on) is that they get really philosophical and kind of preachy about the nature of human politics and our responsibilities to atone for the sins of past generations. You really have to settle in and let the ideas percolate without prejudging too much. Personally, I love those ideas, but they form a bit of a Space Whale Aesop given that we do not in fact have drugs that bestow Psychic Powers on humans and Genetic Memory is not a real thing.

Edited by Fighteer on Oct 21st 2021 at 11:19:32 AM

Dune Messiah was actually not so much like a coda but an actual coda released as a sequel.

The editors, probably wisely, said that depicting the hero becoming a genocidal dictator was perhaps not the most marketable ending.

I figured that was the author’s intent from the beginning myself; it’s why there is so much cynicism around the messiah myths from Paul and Jessica.

I bit the bullet and went to see an evening screening of the film! As everyone says, it looks and sounds great. I was surprised at how quickly the plot moved without monologues (the beauty of a film adaptation). I wonder whag people going in blind think though; the first act pacing was a little disjointed and the character motivations might be confusing.

Greatly looking forward to our American thread collegues finally getting to see the film and their reactions here!

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To add to Fighteer's excellent posts above:

1) For fairness's and completion's sake regarding Brian Herbert & Kevin J. Anderson's controversial later Dune novels: in my opinion far more impactful than their many, maaaannnyyy prequels are their two actual Dune Sequels, Hunters of Dune and Sandworms of Dune (allegedly based on Frank Herbert's outlines for his planned final book), which conclusively end the storylines from Heretics and Chapterhouse, and, thereby, also the entire Dune Saga (if one wants to consider them canon).

So, purely for the information of newcomers who actually plan to read Frank Herbert's Dune Saga, be prepared to have to make the decision at the end: either have it end super-open-ended with big mysteries and cliffhangers (which I, and everyone else happily did for decades), or decide to let (objectively lesser) writers give you a definitive end (which many fans were unhappy with).

(For the record, I really like both these two novels and their Prequel Butler's Jihad Trilogy, which makes me a mad pariah in "serious" Dune circles)

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2) Fighteeer mentioned that the later books especially become very "preachy" and go into all sorts of politics. That is completely true, but just to prevent misunderstandings for newcomers, I'll add this: we are not talking about the kind of "politics" that we see in most media today, associated with alllll kinds of bad, inflammatory, partisan things on both sides. No; as Fighteer said, it's weird and Space Whale Aesop-y, which I also love.

The discussions between and opinions expressed by the various characters here are in no way mouthpieces for the author and his views or strawmen or anything like that; they are based in the crazy circumstances of this faaaaarrrrr-away future, and their way-expanded minds and future-sight and whatnot; super difficult to explain, but that's the best way I can put it right now. When you're reading this, you're wrapped in a haze of everything being so removed from your own time and reality that you're just enjoying how different these people and their thoughtprocesses are, so our own values and politics don't enter into all of this at all (unless you want to apply parts of it, yourself, of course; what Tolkien also considered himself to have provided - applicability, not forced on you by the author).

Edited by FellDeedsAwake on Oct 22nd 2021 at 4:22:04 PM

If anything, Dune's applicability is to people not just being responsible for their own roles in culture and history, but recognizing how the past shapes everything that occurs in the present. Events from hundreds or even thousands of years ago color the societies of today and our mistakes get written into the lives of people far into the future.

We carry the sins of the past and write the sins of the future. We must be accountable for this.

Stephen Colbert interviews Timothee and Zendaya... on Arrakis.

Turns out stilsuits are terrible at keeping you cool in a real desert.

Not surprising XD

I realized that this film takes great pains to emphasize the desert mouse. So I wonder if there is an alternate cut that ends with Paul naming himself Muad’Dib over a score that is both triumphant and foreboding.

Just got back from it. I enjoyed it, though I can see why a lot of people were saying it's mainly setup. All the same I loved the cinematography, the music, and the aesthetic and whatnot. Though I also disagree with how some people said that it seemed like the shields became an afterthought later; I noticed a lot of deliberate movement in terms of killing blows.

I'm glad that due to reading the book (or at least the first act) I was able to keep track of what was going to happen, like when Yueh brought the medicine I went "Oh. It's time." Also glad that House Atreides got a better showing than in other adaptations, or the books.

I especially enjoyed the Gom Jabbar part where Paul mastered his pain and just started glaring at the Reverend Mother.

Edited by theLibrarian on Oct 22nd 2021 at 9:57:17 AM

Just got back from an IMAX showing. I bloody loved it and I heartily reccomend it to everyone- but I do have a bit of a quibble about the pacing. It has bits where it totally drags

Absolute feast for the eyes though. I loved the "Brutalism but also medieval" look to everything. Duncan Idaho was mad charismatic, I liked him more in this movie than I did in the novel, Soundtrack was one of my favorites in a long while

Just watched on HBO Max with my son. This is way better than I could have hoped for. The parts changed in adaptation aren't too bad. The pacing does drag quite a bit, though. I also absolutely nailed my prediction for where the ending would take place: Paul's trial by combat to join the Fremen.

Just watched it at home. I read the original book ages ago, and none of its sequels, so I had a vague idea of where things were going to go.

It does drag a bit, and some of the more questionable parts are... well, questionable. (The least objectionable: if the Bene Gesserit wanted Jessica to have a girl child, was there something stopping her? Paul apparently knows that she's pregnant right before everything goes to heck.) But most of that is due to the original, I'd say. Surprisingly did not get much of Baron Harkonnen being a Depraved Homosexual, though there's always next movie. gags

The soundtrack is okay (if surprisingly loud) but a lot of the time everyone speaks really quietly, almost mumbling at times. Or maybe that was the TV's volume having issues, I don't know.

I didn't have any problem hearing the dialog, although I watched with subtitles on.

I spent approximately the first hour muttering, "Interesting..." every time a scene from the book appeared on screen. I had to force myself to stop.

The choice to use Chani for the opening narration is interesting; it frames the story around the Fremen, which is very appropriate given where it ends.

I almost wish there had been more exposition about how things work and what everyone's relationship is to each other. For all its length, the movie lets a great deal ride on faith. If you read the books, you know exactly who everybody is and what they're doing. If you haven't, you're going to be totally lost.

Edit: To answer your specific question, Bene Gesserit can control the sex of their children through body manipulation. The film doesn't dwell on Jessica's reasoning, which I think is a missed opportunity, but in the book she falls in love with Leto (against orders) and bears him a son to fulfil his desires rather than that of the Bene Gesserit. This decision is what causes the Kwisatz Haderach to arise a generation earlier than intended and out of their control.

The movie glosses much of this over.

Edited by Fighteer on Oct 22nd 2021 at 1:00:12 PM

For me it was the Baron who was hit the hardest by mumble acting, especially during his healing scene. Everyone else was more or less comprehensible, though I did have the advantage kf book knowledge to fill in the gaps.

This was my reaction too. Yueh at least gets his motivations in at the last minute; I imagine Mohiam and Kynes require a lot more imagination.

The funny thing is that the book uses As You Know relentlessly in the first couple of chapters to lay out all the backstory. The number of times characters explain things to each other that they should already be completely aware of...

The fact that the film chose not to use this trope is a little hilarious.

Edited by Fighteer on Oct 22nd 2021 at 1:08:18 PM

I dunno man I thought the first hour of the movie used a ton of As You Know (forgot how to link to stuff), but in a setting as weird as Dune I think getting exposition done is just something you gotta do. I'm also glad they didn't spoil the first half of the plot the first time we meet The Baron, his first chapter in the Novel aught to have a spoiler tag lol

The first half of this film was always going to be an uphill battle. So much stuff needs to be introduced that it's unavoidable. The mumble acting REALLY doesn't help, to the point that when Oscar Issac yells during the Sandworm attack, it feels legitimately jarring.

Ah mumble acting, truly the classiest of acting.

…….. Should prolly put the subtitles on when I see it.

I feel like the One-Woman Wail is a bit overdone in some places, particularly the planetological station sequence. Yes, Hans, we know you have a Lisa Gerrard and aren't afraid to use her, but maybe give some space for the mumble acting to breathe a little, sheesh.

Not the throat singing and bagpipe parts, though, those are class. The intro sequences for the Bene Gesserit and the Sardaukar rocked my world.

The As You Know moment that stuck out to me: