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Not Tropeworthy: Bi The Way

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Twiddler (On A Trope Odyssey)
#201: May 12th 2020 at 2:10:12 AM

As I was imagining it, the “nonissue” one wouldn’t be a character trope — it refers to a general approach. It can be found for example in speculative fiction, or in escapist fiction.

FernandoLemon Since: Aug, 2015
#202: May 12th 2020 at 4:41:53 AM

If we were to turn Bi The Way into a disambiguation, we should also change the name, as not doing so would cause misuse.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#203: May 12th 2020 at 11:06:05 AM

[up] Then that's not turning Bi The Way into a disambiguation; that's cutting Bi The Way and making a disambiguation on a new page. An equally valid move but not the same move.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#204: May 12th 2020 at 11:13:15 AM

The trope has 35k+ inbounds so I know we'd want to catch those, but I too am concerned that tropers will keep using Bi The Way so long as it is bluelinked.

Crossover-Enthusiast from an abaondoned mall (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#205: May 12th 2020 at 11:30:17 AM

Are false redlinks still a thing or were they broken by site updates?

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WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#206: May 12th 2020 at 11:39:24 AM

All I know is that things that used to redlink, such as This Troper, don't anymore.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
WaterBlap Blapper of Water Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Blapper of Water
#208: May 12th 2020 at 11:52:07 AM

RE naturalironist: It isn't about naming the trope in TLP. It's about proposing the trope in TLP. This leaves open the possibility of the trope not making it through TLP. As someone who has made TLP drafts from TRS efforts, I can report that TRS deciding something is tropeable but then sending it through TLP gets on people's nerves. If we, via TRS, are deciding to make a trope, we (ideally) would make it in a sandbox or something. (This would probably need discussion in the policy thread, but it's just easier to keep open the possibility of the trope not making it through TLP.)


RE: People linking to Bi The Way when it's bluelinked. We have a clean-up thread for cut, renamed, and redefined tropes that still get wicked. Personally I think this is a non-issue to be concerned about, since that clean-up effort generally drills in to people that "this link is not to be made."

Edited by WaterBlap on May 12th 2020 at 1:55:54 PM

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TheMountainKing Since: Jul, 2016
#209: May 12th 2020 at 11:53:48 AM

[up] Clean up threads are generally pretty inefficient compared to just making a red link. A lot of troopers just write entries and never use the forums, and so will have no idea that a new policy has been set. I’m also pretty sure that making a new trope not through TLP is a violation site policy. It also presumed that we have agreed that a trope for "character is LGBT and it's a nonissue" is actually a good idea, which I personally don't think it is.

Edited by TheMountainKing on May 12th 2020 at 2:58:54 PM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#210: May 12th 2020 at 11:56:23 AM

I could go either way on the TLP thing, TBH. While on one hand, it can slow down progress to make a trope go through TLP, and the TLP regulars might not agree with it, that's also the benefit of it. It feels a bit weird to push for not using TLP specifically based on concerns that people might not find it tropeworthy, because the entire point of TLP is to weed-out things that aren't tropeworthy. So if the TLP decides it's a bad idea, idk, maybe it's a bad idea and the people in TRS were just assuming it'd work.

I'm not a fan of forcing TRS threads to stay open while the TLP does it's thing. But I'm also not a fan of trying to get around the entire process; as someone who uses TLP quite a bit, I'd rather have the trope go through the proper process rather than be made just to remove any possibility that non-TRS goers would disagree with it.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
WaterBlap Blapper of Water Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Blapper of Water
#211: May 12th 2020 at 12:01:52 PM

RE: Mountain King:

  1. The "linking despite being removed" is still a non-issue. You did not address what I said about people monitoring wicks and cleaning them up. I said that this action gets people's attention. Like, "Hey why did my entry just get changed. Oh, that page was changed I didn't notice."
  2. You can't make a new trope outside of TLP because you cannot add any pages to Main/ otherwise. Unless, that is, you have mod approval. Obviously if the page is agreed on through TRS I was presuming that mods would approve of it, meaning a mod would move the page from Sandbox/ to Main/. I also said such an action would need discussion in the policy thread, so calm down.
  3. Leaving open the possibility of the trope not launching means that you don't have to agree with the idea that the new trope is a good idea. Because then you could argue that in TLP. The decision wouldn't be made in this crowner. That's kind of the main point of leaving open that possibility in the first place.

RE War Jay: This really isn't the place to discuss the policy since most people who'd be interested probably are going to miss it. But as it was described (read "complained about") to me, it's mostly an elitism thing. Like, there was group consensus that it's tropeworthy, so why does it need to be TLP-regulars making that consensus. Obviously not everyone is going to have this complaint, but you can see how TRS-regulars and TLP-regulars start to look like weird cliques or elitists when either side tries to impose that their specific group gets to make the decision of tropeworthiness of proposed tropes.

Edited by WaterBlap on May 12th 2020 at 2:07:10 PM

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WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#212: May 12th 2020 at 12:05:49 PM

I'm perfectly calm. I just don't think mod approval is a substitute for going through the proper TLP vetting process. If a trope is just being redefined, that's one thing; but if we're making an entirely new trope, no, I'm not going to agree with doing it outside of TLP just because the process doesn't guarantee a launch. That's the whole point of TLP, and why any crowner option that includes this trope existing would reference the fact that the trope would need to launch first.

Edit: Whoops, that whole spiel wasn't directed at me. Yeah, I can see what you mean about the whole "clique-y" issue; in fact I tried not to say "TLP community" for that very reason.

Edited by WarJay77 on May 12th 2020 at 3:12:05 PM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
naturalironist from The Information Superhighway Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#213: May 12th 2020 at 12:06:07 PM

I think I misunderstood, sorry. I agree that if someone wants to make a general "sexuality isn't an issue in the story" TLP they should feel free to do so, but that should be a separate matter since that was in the red as a definition for Bi The Way.

I misread a post thinking that for the second crowner, none of the proposed options would involve keeping the name Bi The Way around, which I thought should have been voted on first or made a separate option. Apparently this was not the case and I apologize for causing additional confusion.

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TheMountainKing Since: Jul, 2016
#214: May 12th 2020 at 12:46:41 PM

Is everyone good on the currently proposed options and can we start the second crowner? All of these options are going to involve a lot of work, so I'd like to get this resolved so we can get started.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#215: May 12th 2020 at 12:48:05 PM

I am, I'm just not sure if we missed anything.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Twiddler (On A Trope Odyssey)
#216: May 12th 2020 at 12:58:13 PM

I agree that if someone wants to make a general "sexuality isn't an issue in the story" TLP they should feel free to do so, but that should be a separate matter since that was in the red as a definition for Bi The Way.

My interpretation of "has no narrative impact" (the option in the crowner) is distinct from "non-issue". If a bi character has love interests of multiple genders but the bisexuality is not called attention to, then it has a narrative impact but is also a non-issue.

TheMountainKing Since: Jul, 2016
#217: May 12th 2020 at 1:03:00 PM

[up] This was the subject of long discussion earlier in the thread, and I believe the consensus was that "no narrative impact" does cover examples like that one.

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#218: May 12th 2020 at 1:27:41 PM

[up]We reached no such consensus since discussion went elsewhere, but I believe the option that covered that was actually "casually introduced". Looking back, it could have been worded more clearly.

Edited by Synchronicity on May 12th 2020 at 3:28:50 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#219: May 12th 2020 at 1:28:46 PM

So before we make the crowner, we need to make sure we're clear on what the new option would actually say. I wrote it as "non-issue" because that's what was proposed, but this discussion is making it sound like that's not what we're actually going for.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Crossover-Enthusiast from an abaondoned mall (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#220: May 12th 2020 at 1:37:53 PM

How about "character's sexuality has no narrative impact beyond who they date, at least initially"?

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WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#221: May 12th 2020 at 1:39:24 PM

Specifically, this is the option we might need to revise:

Whether or not the trope actually gets made (however it gets made, I don't want to reignite the debate again), we'd need to decide what trope it'd actually be and how to write it on the crowner. It's not a vote over creating this page, but the page would be involved in this decision if it gets created.

Edited by WarJay77 on May 12th 2020 at 4:40:38 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
naturalironist from The Information Superhighway Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#222: May 12th 2020 at 1:42:02 PM

I think the new crowner should just literally copy and past the top two options of the current one, which are:

  • Cut and migrate main-page examples to Useful Notes.Bisexual
  • Redefine as "character is introduced as bisexual in a casual way" and clean examples.

Anything else is confusing. The second item is not equivalent to "character's sexuality has no narrative impact" but might be equivalent to "character's sexuality isn't made a big deal of" (I'm not sure).

Edited by naturalironist on May 12th 2020 at 4:42:13 AM

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#223: May 12th 2020 at 1:50:56 PM

[up] Not really; we already kind of agreed to add late options to the crowner, because if they can't be on this one they would've had to be added to the older one, and that would've messed things up even more.

Besides, the Disambig option can work in tandem with the "Cut and Move" option, so it's really just an extra step we might want to take afterwards, rather than a completely new thing.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Brainulator9 Short-Term Projects herald from US Since: Aug, 2018 Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
Short-Term Projects herald
#224: May 12th 2020 at 3:01:16 PM

I mean... not that it may matter, but I definitely wouldn't mind having examples of "wait, you're gay?" "yes." "OK then" or other sorts of anticlimactic reveals.

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TheMountainKing Since: Jul, 2016
#225: May 12th 2020 at 3:13:21 PM

[up] That would require a new trope, because if we abandon keeping Bi The Way restricted to bisexual people, we lose any rationale for keeping the title, at which point we have a new title and a new definition, which is functionally just a new trope.

I would have no problem with "an anticlimactic coming out" as a trope. However, there is a character coming out to other characters and their sexuality being established for the audience. The former seems easier to trope.

Edited by TheMountainKing on May 12th 2020 at 6:20:54 AM

PageAction: BiTheWay
4th May '20 1:22:21 PM

Crown Description:

Bi The Way has been used to refer to any character who is bisexual. What should be done with the page? Cutting wholesale is mutually exclusive with all the other options, but cut-and-move-examples is not mutually exclusive with cut-and-make-a-new-trope.

Please do not add new options here unless they have been discussed by the thread. If you would like to voice your opinion, use the "Add post" button above.

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