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Complaining: Character Derailment

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Deadlock Clock: Aug 15th 2020 at 11:59:00 PM
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#1: Mar 30th 2020 at 6:33:19 PM

Awhile back I brought up examples of Character Derailment I though misused, this brought up a question. Why do does Character Derailment allow on page examples if it's Flame Bait for which other examples aren't allowed any examples (save Periphery Hatedom)? I asked here and here and god no answer. I asked two mods and even they didn't know and recommended I take it here.

Let't look at some of the examples:

  1. SpongeBob SquarePants: SpongeBob, Mr. Krabs, Sandy; Flanderization (and complaining about Karma Houdini). Patrick; Took a Level in Dumbass. Karen; Took a Level in Jerkass.
  2. My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic (IDW): Twilight Sparkle, Iron Will; Fan-Disliked Explanation as their actions are given an in-story explanation, a contrived one that contradicts prior stories and their in-story actions, but explanation nonetheless. I know this due to reading them as the entries fail to mention them showing they are more complaining about the change as opposed to the unexplainedness.
  3. Twilight Sparkle and the Crystal Heart Spell: Trixie; Aesop Amnesia as it's consistent with how she was when she next appeared in show. That's just fan expectations Jossed.
  4. The Legend of Korra: Korra; Took a Level in Jerkass explained by arrogance over her prior successes and dysfunctional relationship. Lin Beifong; Idiot Ball as she normal otherwise. Asami Sato: Chickification.
  5. Teen Titans, Teen Titans Go!: Raven; Took a Level in Dumbass / Cheerfulness.
  6. Transformers: Beast Machines: Same Character, But Different as it's meant to be caused by the events between series. Rhinox; Fan-Disliked Explanation as it would have made more sense if he were effected by his brainwashing.
  7. Archer: Pam; sounds like Characterization Marches On.
  8. American Dad!: Stan Smith; Flanderization. Steve Smith; Took a Level in Dumbass. Francine Smith, Roger: Took a Level in Jerkass and the latter getting smarter.
  9. Ben 10: Alien Force: Kevin; Shocking Swerve. Vilgax; he was faking the changes.
  10. The Simpsons: Everyone: Flanderization (including the Trope Namer), Early-Installment Weirdness, and Took a Level in Jerkass.
  11. Total Drama: Trent: Flanderization. Geoff, Bridgette, Courtney, Gwen, Leshawna, Duncan, Owen ; Took a Level in Jerkass. Lindsay; Took a Level in Dumbass. Ezekiel; Took a Level in Jerkass and explained as "he decided to stow away in the ship's cargo hold, which eventually resulted in him mutating into a feral, barely-sapient Gollum Expy". DJ; Badass Decay. Mike, Zoey, Cameron; Took a Level in Dumbass and issues unreleased to character: Dave; explained as "he started becoming too dependent on her which lead to him suffering from a breakdown" and Sanity Slippage.
  12. The Nostalgia Critic: The Critic, Chester A Bum; Took a Level in Jerkass.
  13. Chad Vader: Villain Decay.
  14. 8-Bit Theater: Dark Elf Drizz'l; Early-Installment Weirdness.
  15. The Lounge, Snidest: Zero-Context Example
  16. Red String: Derailing Love Interests (and Jump the Shark violating in-universe only)
  17. Darths & Droids: in-universe example, valid.
  18. Super Mario Bros.: Depending on the Writer. Bowser, Villain Decay. Princess Peach; Took a Level in Dumbass.
  19. Sonic: Depending on the Writer. Eggman; Villain Decay. Tails; Flanderization, Took a Level in Jerkass, Badass Decay. Knuckles, Sonic; Flanderization. Amy, Flanderization, Took a Level in Jerkass. Shadow: Took a Level in Jerkass.
  20. Sly Cooper: Penelope: Shocking Swerve.
  21. Mega Man X: Mega Man X; explained as " it's at least understandable given that he wanted to stop fighting in the first place". Sigma; Sanity Slippage.
  22. Crash Bandicoot: Dr. Neo Cortex, Uka Uka; Villain Decay.
  23. Jak and Daxter: Erol; Sanity Slippage / Came Back Wrong / Revenge.
  24. Fallout 3: Idiot Ball and far too short a moment.
  25. Resident Evil 5: Wesker; Sanity Slippage and argues that it was there since the beginning.
  26. Chrono Cross: Same Character, But Different.
  27. Final Fantasy: Flanderization, Adaptation Personality Change
  28. EarthBound: Giygas/Giegue; Sanity Slippage and With Great Power Comes Great Insanity.
  29. Super Robot Wars K: Adaptation Personality Change.
  30. Star Fox Command: Fox, Krystal; explained as Fox braking up for her safety causing Krystal to become jerkish, Fan-Disliked Explanation for contradicting Fox's prior actions. Star Wolf team. Villain Decay.
  31. Mass Effect: Jacob Taylor, unpleasant reveal but fails to explain how it's OOC. Kai Leng; Flanderization / Villain Decay / Characterization Marches On. Liara T'Soni: Same Character, But Different which gets explained in-work. The Geth: explained as panic and desperation which fans and the writer disagree with, Fan-Disliked Explanation / Creator Backlash.
  32. Metroid: Other M: Samus Fan-Disliked Explanation as she's been through as bad as what was supposed to have caused it. Adam; Informed Attribute as he's meant to come off the same but the work does a very bad job at showing it.
  33. Halo: The Prophet of Truth; Sanity Slippage. The Didact: Continuity Snarl / Retcon. Cortana: Came Back Wrong.
  34. Kingdom Hearts II: Adaptation Personality Change.
  35. Time Crisis 5: Christy Ryan, Keith Martin; didn't have enough characterization before to contradict. Robert Baxter; Shocking Swerve.
  36. .hack//Legend of the Twilight: sounds like Adaptation Personality Change.
  37. Yu-Gi-Oh! GX: Daichi Misawa; explained as "a drastic personality change is justified if he really was raped by a love-crazed Amazon", not sure if the explanation is serious. Asuka Tenjoin; Badass Decay.
  38. Pokémon: Ash's Charizard; explained as evolving effecting it's personality. Brock; Flanderization. Ash; Took a Level in Dumbass. Paul, Ambipom; explained but Ass Pull developments.
  39. Gundam: Reccoa: Paptimus corrupting her. Katejina Loos; Jumping Off the Slippery Slope and What Could Have Been (she was meant to have a more explained, gradual fall but Troubled Production). Zeheart Galette; Jumping Off the Slippery Slope.
  40. Puella Magi Madoka Magica PSP: For Want Of A Nail as it shows how different circumstances would cause them to act so.
  41. Naruto: Obito Uchiha/Tobi; Evil All Along. Sasuke Uchiha, Black Zetsu: Shocking Swerve.
  42. Dragon Ball: Chi-Chi; Chickification. Pan; Same Character, But Different (4-year old to preteen seems like changes in character are expected).
  43. Titan A.E.: Korso; Shocking Swerve.
  44. Adaptation.: in-universe example, valid.
  45. Space Jam: Bugs Bunny: Adaptation Personality Change. Loony Toons have such loose at best continuity can they even count?
  46. The NeverEnding Story III: The Rock Biter, Falcor: In Name Only.
  47. Spider-Man 2: Mary Jane Watson; Took a Level in Jerkass.
  48. War and Peace: Natasha Rostov: Ass Pull.
  49. Nancy Drew: Gradual changes not abrupt.
  50. Legacy of the Force: Jacen Solo; Jumping Off the Slippery Slope. Tahiri Veila, Aesop Amnesia and Aborted Arc.
  51. The Last Battle: Susan: Eplained as offscreen character development (and united Unfortunate Implications entry).
  52. Harry Potter and the Cursed Child: Cedric Diggory. Fan-Disliked Explanation as the explanation contradicts his character.
  53. Halo: Glasslands: Writer on Board / Depending on the Writer.
  54. Bones: Zack; Shocking Swerve. Booth; Doesn't explained what about there character changed. Bones; Flanderization.
  55. Game of Thrones: Doreah, Daenerys (previously deleted as it's explained as her cracking under a Trauma Conga Line then added back without approval) ; Ass Pull. Shae; Adaptation-Induced Plot Hole. Sansa; Badass Decay. Ellaria Sand; 90% complaining about Adaptation Personality Change with a throwaway mention falling under Characterization Marches On. Petyr Baelish; Took a Level in Dumbass. The Unsullied: Villain Decay or Informed Attribute. Jaime; Adaptation Personality Change and explained as unable to get over his feelings. Davos Seaworth; Angst? What Angst?. Tyrion: Took a Level in Dumbass. Jon Snow: Heroic BSoD or Out-of-Character Moment as he gets over it and it's just for a small part of the arc.

That's not even getting into fanworks which may all fall under Adaptation Personality Change and oft run afoul with Examples Are Not General.

Discounting in-universe, effectively 100% are used for complaining as opposed to how the changes are unexplained/inexplicable. Explaining how the cause of the changes are unexplained sounds like a level of complexity beyond what can ne expected of a trope that produces such strong emotions.

The only ones that don't discuss production circumstances outside the work caused it, which is redundant with Trivia tropes.

I see no reason to keep non in-universe examples as 1. all legitimate points or issues can go under existing tropes (which would require the level of thought and analysis missing in most Derailment examples)t 2. it's attracting knee-jerk and vitriol such almost all examples fail to give examples sufficient analysis to determine if it's really unexplained or they're just not happy with the change or explanations. What counts as sufficient explanation (something fans will accept even if they dislike the development) sounds like Dude, Not Funny!, too subjective and contentious even for a YMMV.

And why does Periphery Hatedom allow examples (groups hating works they aren't expected to care about doesn't seem the kind of analysis this wiki does)? I ask because the only argument given for keeping Character Derailment Example was Periphery Hatedom also allows examples.

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Apr 7th 2020 at 11:51:07 AM

Berrenta Bejeweled (she/her) (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: I made a point to burn all of the photographs
Bejeweled (she/her)
#2: May 29th 2020 at 8:42:28 PM

Sorry for the wait, ~Ferot_Dreadnaught.

As a thread has recently been cleared away, opened for discussion.

jandn2014 SMILE! from somewhere in Connecticut Since: Aug, 2017 Relationship Status: Hiding
SMILE!
#3: May 29th 2020 at 8:48:59 PM

I agree that this shouldn't allow on-page examples (minus In-Universe ones).

Edited by jandn2014 on May 30th 2020 at 9:51:24 AM

rjd1922 Best robot boy | he/him | Image Pickin' regular, from the United States Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Love is for the living, Sal
Best robot boy | he/him | Image Pickin' regular,
#4: May 29th 2020 at 9:55:28 PM

As explained on this thread, Flame Bait does allow on-page examples unless it's also on Definition-Only Pages, so keep examples. Examples often fit multiple tropes; just because you can find another trope that fits doesn't mean it's not tropeworthy.

Edited by rjd1922 on May 29th 2020 at 11:58:29 AM

Keet cleanup
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#5: May 30th 2020 at 1:54:37 AM

Huh. Lots of links from work pages for a trope supposedly Flame Bait.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
eroock Since: Sep, 2012
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#7: May 30th 2020 at 6:45:45 AM

Keep to in universe only.

This has always struck me as a complaint magnet.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
GastonRabbit C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
C'est la vie. (he/him)
#8: May 30th 2020 at 8:23:24 AM

If there are in-universe examples on the wiki, then I'm fine with IUEO. Otherwise, making this a Definition Only Page would be more practical.

Edited by GastonRabbit on May 30th 2020 at 10:25:34 AM

I got a rock for Halloween.
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#9: May 30th 2020 at 8:42:26 PM

I've counted 23 at most intentional, discussed, or in-universe examples. That's out of 542 total example after I removed several as Flame Bait. Out of Character can be used as a replacement for many of them.

I found a potential problem with the in-universe examples:

Analyst Bronies React:

  • Character Derailment: There are In-Universe reactions to this in Everfree.
    • The analysts are not happy that human Filthy Rich is being portrayed as a Corrupt Corporate Executive, when his Equestrian counterpart has been an aversion to that trope.
    • They are also not happy that human Rarity gets flanderized to just care about fashion, unlike the Hidden Depths of her counterpart.

  • Mau Ler:
  • Character Derailment:invoked
    • Has this problem with the original series cast in The Last Jedi, as it takes the image of them built up over the franchise and derails them for the sake of the plot. While he acknowledges characters can change, the problem is that they do so in a way that has no logical path or build up behind it, abruptly breaking the foundation of their character rather than making the change feel natural over time.
    • Finds Game of Thrones Season 8 to be disastrous because of this, whether it be Tyrion appealing to Cersei's better nature (despite previously making it clear he despises her for her attitude towards him and her repeated attempts to get him killed), Jon telling Ghost to go to with the wildlings without giving him a proper goodbye (when previously he treated Ghost like family), or Jaime and Daenerys abruptly turning on the principles they've been developing the past seasons with little to no buildup beforehand, causing the plot to feel rushed and go in directions that seem to come out of nowhere.

The Last Jedi has been extensively deemed non-examples by this wiki. Game of Thrones isn't wrong but fails to explain how it's derailment as opposed to one off OOC moments.

The Little Pony Legend

I intend to cut or move to Fix Fic as Rerailment is YMMV so even if it's intended it's not this if audiences disagree which I believe is the case? Thoughts on if it should be cut or moved?

The problem with making it in-universe only is that it's so contentious that what's deemed Character Derailment in-universe isn't this by this wiki's definition. But on the subject of in-universe...

Characters.Darths And Droids

This Show Within a Show example is the only example that I think is a 100% accurate use of the trope that isn't OOC or Adaptation Personality Change. Any other tropes this can fall? If so I can't think of any reason to allow even in-universe examples.

GastonRabbit C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
C'est la vie. (he/him)
#10: May 31st 2020 at 12:01:40 AM

Too tired to completely decide whether this should be IUEO or definition-only, but anyway...

If we make this a definition-only page, there's precedent for the existence of a definition-only Flame Bait page with non-Flame Bait, non-definition-only subtropes, since that's what Internet Backdraft was turned into last year. As a result, if we turn Character Derailment into a definition-only page (which it would have to be if we remove on-page examples, since wicks are already forbidden), the subtropes that are listed could be left alone.

Edited by GastonRabbit on May 31st 2020 at 2:02:21 PM

I got a rock for Halloween.
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#11: May 31st 2020 at 11:29:03 AM

If we allow in-universe examples, does that included works reviewing the work (I argue against as they often has different standards for Derailment than this wiki), or just fictional work within work examples?

Brainulator9 Short-Term Projects herald from US Since: Aug, 2018 Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
Short-Term Projects herald
#12: Jun 5th 2020 at 5:31:34 PM

Personally, I'd like to clean up examples, but I don't know how worth it it would be. The presence of Character Rerailment on pages where Derailment has not been established outside of the trope's page is also giving me pause as to the proper course of action.

Contains 20% less fat than the leading value brand!
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#13: Jun 5th 2020 at 9:50:36 PM

[up] Reralilment also applies to Flanderization or any other developments that aren't Derailment (unexplained changes).

SeptimusHeap MOD from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#14: Jul 6th 2020 at 1:08:30 AM

Clock is set.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
rjd1922 Best robot boy | he/him | Image Pickin' regular, from the United States Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Love is for the living, Sal
Best robot boy | he/him | Image Pickin' regular,
#15: Jul 7th 2020 at 4:39:35 PM

[up]The clock should be extended by 24 hours due to the server crash.

Keet cleanup
SeptimusHeap MOD from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#16: Jul 7th 2020 at 11:46:30 PM

Done.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
FernandoLemon Since: Aug, 2015
#17: Jul 8th 2020 at 9:46:23 AM

So, do we have any consensus on what to do here? Or any ideas on what to put in a crowner?

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#18: Jul 9th 2020 at 10:54:06 PM

Being frank?

I'm not even sure I know what the problem is.

It's already Flame Bait. Of course it's used for complaining. As long as we can make sure it's kept to other Flame Bait pages or Darth, what's the actual problem?

I'm like genuinely asking here. I've been trying to wrap my head around it for a while but since nobody else seems to want to say anything...I might as well. Who knows? Maybe the lack of responses are because other people are like me and just don't know what to say.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
rjd1922 Best robot boy | he/him | Image Pickin' regular, from the United States Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Love is for the living, Sal
Best robot boy | he/him | Image Pickin' regular,
#19: Jul 9th 2020 at 11:33:28 PM

[up]I agree. It's already in Darth Flame Bait, so I don't see a problem.

Edited by rjd1922 on Jul 12th 2020 at 10:25:19 AM

Keet cleanup
GastonRabbit C'est la vie. (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
C'est la vie. (he/him)
#20: Jul 10th 2020 at 12:01:46 AM

[up]Character Derailment isn't on Darth Wiki, but it currently has examples, similarly to Flame Bait pages on Darth Wiki (such as So Bad, It's Horrible and Idiot Programming).

[up][up]If wicks are restricted to Flame Bait pages, that's fine. For example, Internet Backdraft has wicks on So Bad, It's Horrible pages. But yeah, the whole point of the Flame Bait category is that pages listed there are related to complaining.

Anyway, I won't complain (heh) if we just let this thread clock out.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 10th 2020 at 2:12:54 PM

I got a rock for Halloween.
Ferot_Dreadnaught Since: Mar, 2015
#21: Jul 11th 2020 at 1:44:15 PM

[up][up][up]The problem is not wicks or Darth, but a question of why does Character Derailment allow on-page examples when most other Flame Bait tropes do not?

Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Jul 11th 2020 at 2:00:17 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#22: Jul 11th 2020 at 1:48:56 PM

Because...they aren't really hurting anything by being confined to the space?

Other Flame Bait tropes that allow on-page examples are:

The ones that don't are more for describing specific terms (like Mary Sue or Fan Dumb) or decided that examples would just be utterly pointless anyway (like Unpleasable Fanbase).

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#23: Jul 11th 2020 at 2:17:38 PM

I thought Snark Bait is an index rather then being allows on page examples.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
naturalironist from The Information Superhighway Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#25: Jul 11th 2020 at 2:20:57 PM

Eh, okay, was wrong about Snark Bait. But the others are true.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall

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